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You know, like actually sometimes I’ll
get so much dopamine from a conversation

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00:00:05,850 –> 00:00:09,810
that I have to like chill for a little
bit to like come back to baseline.

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‘Cause you can have a really fast crash
after a good conversation ’cause you don’t

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know what to do with yourself with all
the chemicals that are floating around.

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It’s been a learning curve
to kind of understand that.

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00:00:54,435 –> 00:00:56,955
Today, we’re speaking with Malisa Hepner.

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She is an author, a speaker, a
podcast host, also a licensed

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00:01:02,985 –> 00:01:04,515
clinical social worker.

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00:01:04,965 –> 00:01:07,245
Malisa, could you please
introduce yourself?

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Let people know a little
more about you, please.

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Hello, I’m Malisa.

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I don’t know how much you want
me to go back, but, uh, I’ll

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give you a really quick summary.

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Um, about a year ago, I started a podcast.

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I quit my full-time employment, I
started a private practice, and uh,

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kind of on an entrepreneurial journey.

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I had a spiritual awakening during
the beginning of my healing, and I’m

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just kind of on a global mission to,
I always say, I’m, I’m, I’m changing

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the world, starting with mine.

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So I’m, what I find is that the
more I learn about myself and apply

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love, compassion, understanding
to myself, the more I can see

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all of the same things in others.

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And just a really close
connection to humanity in general.

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And so every time I change something in
my world, it changes the world around me.

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And I’m just kind of looking for
that ripple effect, you know,

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sharing my story as much as possible.

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And, um, just showing people healing’s
possible, it’s not as hard as we make it.

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And ultimately life’s not about
healing, uh, you know, uh, we heal so

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that we can live life to the fullest.

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I agree with that a
hundred percent, Malisa.

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Be the change you wanna see in
the world, Gandhi, it’s one of

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the great quotes of all times.

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And if you are really true to that, you’ll
find that you do a lot of inner work.

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And that is hard, especially when
you come from backgrounds that

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might not be the best per se.

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But we all have our backgrounds.

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So why don’t you start with
your background and tell people

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what, what your life was like
when you were young growing up.

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Okay, so I was, um, in the hospital by
two months old for neglect, essentially.

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My parents were addicts, they just kind
of didn’t know what they were doing.

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Um, like I don’t think they were
intentionally not taking good care

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of me, it just, they had very limited
capacity to do anything different.

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And, uh, did a lot of back and
forth, even in that first year,

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between my grandma and my mom.

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I was put in, uh, foster care at
like ten months old as well and,

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uh, maybe, maybe younger than that.

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But basically with addict parents,
I experienced every type of

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abuse that you can experience.

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And, either by them or someone
that they put me around.

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And

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we went back and forth between my
mom and my grandparents until I

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was about eight and then my grandma
got permanent guardianship of us.

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We did, uh, foster care sort of,
um, through our state agency,

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and then my grandpa divorced my
grandma when I was twelve and left

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her for his best friend’s wife.

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And at that time we got, uh, involved
in a private foster care agency

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’cause my grandma, she did not have
any way to take care of or support.

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I mean, she had been staying at home with
us and then prior to that, with her kids.

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I mean, she supported
my grandpa’s business.

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He was a truck driver, he
had a hauling business.

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And so she just didn’t have any
capacity to financially care for us.

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And we were, it was a program
called the Casey Family

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Program, amazing organization.

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I’m still to this day, so grateful for
them, dedicated my first book to them.

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But, um, so then we’re still doing a
lot of, like, my parents are involved,

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but they’re still raging addicts, in
and out of prison, in and out of jail.

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Like, it’s, like someone’s constantly
incarcerated, usually my mom.

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00:05:13,784 –> 00:05:15,734
I mean, if I’m being fair,
it was mostly my mom.

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Uh, my dad had his fair share,
but he was a lot better at staying

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out of trouble than she was.

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But then my dad died of a morphine
overdose when I was fifteen and my mom

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died of complications related to Hep C and
cirrhosis when she, when I was, uh, almost

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twenty-two, pregnant with my first kid.

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And it was just so much trauma on the
daily ’cause my grandma as the, though

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she did her best, was also a narcissist.

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And, uh, it was incredibly
difficult dealing with

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recurring trauma and then
also the constant criticism

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and division that’s created.

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And I was surrounded by a very
unhealthy, toxic family system.

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So because I lived with my grandma,
all the cousins, all the aunts,

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uncle, you know, they came to our
house and we were around them a lot.

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And while it created some good memories,
it also created a lot of strife within

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because it was a really unhealthy system.

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And so I took a lot, a lot, a lot of
very maladaptive coping behaviors into

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my adulthood, and that is, that’s kind
of where I found myself at forty-four

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in, in, well, forty-three really,
but complete burnout in every area

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of my life with zero understanding of
what I needed to do to feel better.

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Like, I was in profound darkness.

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And so that’s, that’s what got
me here, was learning how to

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get myself outta that darkness.

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Let’s go back to the early part of your
life again, because a lot of that toxic

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family behavior, it definitely had a
big impact with your social environment.

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So that impact, how did it make you do
in school and what was that association

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like crossing over into, out of, out
of home and into your social life?

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00:07:29,460 –> 00:07:32,789
Um, man, that is a really good question.

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I was,

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I guess the best way to say this,
for me, I felt, in hindsight, this

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is the, the verbiage I would use,
I was really stunted socially.

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Like I, I really, I was awkward.

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Um, I’m a Gemini and have a lot
of fire in my, in myself, so like,

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I was outgoing, but almost like
in the most uncoordinated way.

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I was desperate for
approval and acceptance.

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And so I just did a lot of really
weird stuff like, actually the first

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chapter in my first book is all
about all the weird stuff I did.

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Like, because I can laugh at it, but
like literally, I was a weird kid.

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I did the weirdest stuff.

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And I mean, up until high school,
well, after about seventh or eighth

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grade, I was, uh, probably seventh,
I, I just was, I was so socially

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awkward and a lot of masking.

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I remember just trying to like fit
someone else on for size, like just

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taking other people’s personality traits
and like, actually the only reason I’m

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as funny as I am, and I’m being dead
serious, is ’cause my older brother

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was hilarious and we loved comedy.

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And, and I watched him, and
I studied him, and I saw the

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way people magnetized to him.

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And he was, he was, he had
such a good personality.

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And so I would steal from him,
I would steal from Jim Carrey

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00:09:06,599 –> 00:09:09,540
on, um, what was that show?

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In Living Color.

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00:09:11,040 –> 00:09:14,230
You know, like I, I would just
take these pieces of, of people’s

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personalities and just like mask in them.

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I did not know how to be an individual
or who I was until, honestly, probably,

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like it started in high school.

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But once my dad died, I mean, very
sobering and somber obviously.

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So you kind of start to get your
understanding of what’s important and

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what’s not and whatever and I started
to kind of develop a self at that time.

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But man, I, and, and as far
as learning went, I was, I had

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so much struggle in school.

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I had so, so much struggle.

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I mean, I still have yet to
be diagnosed with ADHD ’cause

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I’ve never pursued a diagnosis.

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But I have zero doubt I have that.

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I have zero doubt that I had major
trauma brain that just did not, I mean,

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I remember having so much trouble just,
just attuning into the environment.

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I was very zoned out all the time.

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Just kind of, I created little
fantasy worlds to live in, to

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kind of cope with everything.

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Um, and, and some of that’s a normal,
like kid coping, I think, but I

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was pretty maladaptive with it.

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I mean, I really was.

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Yeah.

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So going into, you know, that high
school into college phase, because

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you obviously went into college
and received your social worker

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license, did, was there a difference?

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Because there’s obviously going to be
a shift in behavior from that childhood

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behavior into more of an adult sense.

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Was that sort of a grooming
period for your adult life?

148
00:11:03,100 –> 00:11:03,270
Okay.

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00:11:03,270 –> 00:11:09,420
So when I graduated high school, uh, the
Casey Family Program had this amazing

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00:11:09,690 –> 00:11:13,800
scholarship for their youth in care.

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And they would help provide a
portion of your rent, or like

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housing outta college, whatever.

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00:11:22,650 –> 00:11:24,780
They were very, very, very
financially supportive.

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So I moved outta my grandma’s
house, I turned eighteen in

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June, I moved out August 1st and
started college two weeks later.

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And I went from all the right
decisions for all the wrong reasons

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as a good girl and the family
golden child to complete freedom

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to make whatever decision I wanted.

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And I’m gonna let you know those
weren’t great decisions for me.

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Like just being thrown out into the world,
like all of a sudden, like you’ve never

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had an ounce of freedom in your life
’cause my grandma was very controlling,

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00:12:00,165 –> 00:12:04,695
to now, like, as long as she don’t find
out, like, baby, you can do what you want.

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And I did what I wanted, okay?

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00:12:06,435 –> 00:12:09,885
So I did go to school for about
three weeks and then dropped

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00:12:09,945 –> 00:12:11,985
out without dropping my classes.

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00:12:12,135 –> 00:12:15,705
Uh, I did that two times, two semesters.

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00:12:16,035 –> 00:12:18,405
So I went, dropped out within three weeks.

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00:12:18,405 –> 00:12:20,625
Casey family was like, We
are so disappointed in you.

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00:12:20,625 –> 00:12:22,455
And I was like, I’m pretty
disappointed in me too.

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Sorry about you.

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00:12:23,925 –> 00:12:25,425
And then I took a semester off.

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And then during that semester off, met
my ex-husband, moved in immediately.

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Real healthy stuff there.

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00:12:37,035 –> 00:12:38,985
Married him ’cause I
lost my virginity to him.

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00:12:39,585 –> 00:12:42,525
And then, um, ’cause that’s what
grandma said you had to do, you’re

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absolved of the sin if you marry them.

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So we were all good there, don’t worry.

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We were righteous, got married.

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00:12:48,375 –> 00:12:51,975
Um, and then I, I did the
same exact thing again.

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00:12:52,185 –> 00:12:55,095
Went to school, made it longer in
the semester, about three fourths,

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00:12:55,095 –> 00:12:57,195
and then I was done, dropped again.

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00:12:58,215 –> 00:13:00,105
Got more F’s on my transcript.

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00:13:00,585 –> 00:13:05,445
And then I took, um, one semester off and

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00:13:05,445 –> 00:13:08,505
then I went back and, and
started getting serious.

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00:13:08,505 –> 00:13:13,454
And I only made it a couple
semesters because 9/11 happened

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00:13:13,545 –> 00:13:17,865
and my schizophrenic brother was
in New York and we didn’t know.

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00:13:18,135 –> 00:13:24,615
We got a call from Bellevue Hospital,
um, which is a major psychiatric unit

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00:13:24,615 –> 00:13:29,115
there, uh, but right there in Manhattan,
where they said, this was September

189
00:13:29,115 –> 00:13:34,035
12th, and they said, Yo, this is so
and so from Bellevue, um, your brother

190
00:13:34,665 –> 00:13:36,915
is here in our psychiatric facility.

191
00:13:36,915 –> 00:13:39,375
He wandered in here on September 10th.

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00:13:40,335 –> 00:13:42,555
We live in Oklahoma for reference, okay?

193
00:13:43,365 –> 00:13:46,455
He wandered in here on September
10th asking for a cigarette,

194
00:13:46,575 –> 00:13:49,125
and we 50 through 50’d him.

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00:13:49,125 –> 00:13:52,050
I mean, we put, we, we admitted
him against his will because

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00:13:52,050 –> 00:13:53,760
he was delusional and whatever.

197
00:13:54,240 –> 00:13:57,719
And then September 11th happened,
like the thought of like, the fact

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00:13:57,719 –> 00:14:01,680
that he could have been dead in New
York City and we never would’ve known

199
00:14:01,920 –> 00:14:04,140
because we had no idea he was there.

200
00:14:04,349 –> 00:14:08,459
We had checked on him in his apartment,
my grandma went over there, he, she, he

201
00:14:08,459 –> 00:14:11,370
wasn’t there when she went to check, and
then boom, this is the next call we get.

202
00:14:11,699 –> 00:14:16,695
And I understand what was happening
inside of me now, but at the time

203
00:14:16,695 –> 00:14:20,985
I didn’t understand why that jacked
me up so much between that and my

204
00:14:20,985 –> 00:14:25,575
mom’s incarceration, um, I was like,
I gotta take a little time off.

205
00:14:25,575 –> 00:14:30,525
So I did, and then I got pregnant
on purpose, but because, you know,

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00:14:30,525 –> 00:14:33,645
twenty-two year olds should absolutely
get pregnant on purpose, okay?

207
00:14:34,185 –> 00:14:40,305
Um, but like, I mean, unhealed really,
whatever, twenty-two year olds.

208
00:14:40,305 –> 00:14:43,155
I’m saying, for me, it wasn’t the
smartest decision, do you boo?

209
00:14:43,214 –> 00:14:48,015
But, um, and then I got, after I had him,
I just got super, super serious about

210
00:14:48,015 –> 00:14:50,474
it, and I was a different person then.

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00:14:50,655 –> 00:14:52,724
First of all, I learned
that I could learn.

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00:14:52,724 –> 00:14:56,564
I, I could take in information,
remember it, and, and I was smart.

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00:14:56,564 –> 00:14:59,954
Like I remember the first semester
making a four point, that I was

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00:14:59,959 –> 00:15:05,565
like, I’m not even just average,
like I’m, I’m intelligent, you know?

215
00:15:05,775 –> 00:15:09,195
Because I really, I, I super thought
I was dumb because I did have a

216
00:15:09,195 –> 00:15:13,230
very hard time learning math and
that didn’t change for some years.

217
00:15:13,470 –> 00:15:16,650
My brain had to fully develop
before I could learn math.

218
00:15:16,650 –> 00:15:17,460
I mean, truthfully.

219
00:15:17,760 –> 00:15:20,700
But, um, other than that, like
I’m, I’m a smart gal. I, but I

220
00:15:20,700 –> 00:15:22,260
didn’t see it that way at all.

221
00:15:22,410 –> 00:15:26,070
So I really struggled up
until I put my mind to it.

222
00:15:26,070 –> 00:15:29,985
Like, I was like, No, I’m, I,
I’m getting this degree, like

223
00:15:29,985 –> 00:15:31,365
I don’t care what I have to do.

224
00:15:31,365 –> 00:15:32,025
I’m getting this.

225
00:15:32,025 –> 00:15:37,215
And I wanted to show my kids,
my parents, my grandma, my

226
00:15:37,215 –> 00:15:39,165
family, like this is possible.

227
00:15:39,165 –> 00:15:43,875
And I was the first in my entire, okay, I
always forget this ’cause I don’t, I don’t

228
00:15:43,875 –> 00:15:46,485
think about my dad’s family as my family.

229
00:15:46,485 –> 00:15:50,655
I don’t know why, they’re not who I
was like predominantly raised around.

230
00:15:50,805 –> 00:15:54,135
So to be fair, cousins on my
dad’s side did graduate before

231
00:15:54,135 –> 00:15:55,275
me, so blah, blah, blah.

232
00:15:55,665 –> 00:15:58,275
I never wanna like say
anything, uh, incorrectly there.

233
00:15:58,275 –> 00:16:02,715
But in my family, what I consider
to be my family, I was the first.

234
00:16:02,715 –> 00:16:07,395
And so, I mean, I was actually
only about the sixth to graduate

235
00:16:07,395 –> 00:16:08,685
high school in my family.

236
00:16:08,715 –> 00:16:13,810
And for reference, I have
like nineteen cousins.

237
00:16:14,140 –> 00:16:18,280
So like, not, not, not all
of them graduated, you know?

238
00:16:19,990 –> 00:16:21,310
Very interesting.

239
00:16:21,640 –> 00:16:29,740
You know, so that part of life is
one of those, it, it’s exciting

240
00:16:29,770 –> 00:16:31,750
and degrading at the same time.

241
00:16:33,175 –> 00:16:34,435
And until,

242
00:16:36,055 –> 00:16:37,990
Oh God, it’ll beat you down, won’t it?

243
00:16:39,214 –> 00:16:39,810
It will.

244
00:16:40,770 –> 00:16:43,650
So it, it’s very exciting.

245
00:16:43,890 –> 00:16:44,520
And

246
00:16:46,560 –> 00:16:55,290
at one point, reality hits and you
realize, I’ve, I’ve gotta clean myself up.

247
00:16:55,290 –> 00:16:57,000
What was that moment like for you?

248
00:16:58,319 –> 00:17:08,310
You know, I think it was actually
a lot of moments like when I was

249
00:17:08,430 –> 00:17:13,560
dropping out that first semester, I
remember like, yes, there was so much

250
00:17:13,560 –> 00:17:19,560
shame and, and guilt and just, uh, an
overall yuckiness about the experience.

251
00:17:20,100 –> 00:17:21,300
But I don’t know.

252
00:17:21,300 –> 00:17:26,130
I had, I think, man, I really think I
must have had some sort of connection

253
00:17:26,130 –> 00:17:31,590
with like a higher version of me
because I was very good, oddly, at

254
00:17:31,590 –> 00:17:37,140
soothing myself over that situation
and being like, This happens, you know?

255
00:17:37,140 –> 00:17:41,010
Like you just, you, you
weren’t ready and it’s okay.

256
00:17:41,010 –> 00:17:43,950
Like, ’cause I didn’t have anyone else
telling me that, I’ll tell you that much.

257
00:17:43,950 –> 00:17:45,390
Everyone was pretty disappointed.

258
00:17:46,140 –> 00:17:49,470
Why is it a surprise that the
person who just graduated high

259
00:17:49,470 –> 00:17:55,035
school with a 1.7, didn’t do well?

260
00:17:55,305 –> 00:17:59,355
Being thrown to the wolves, going
to college for the first time.

261
00:17:59,565 –> 00:18:03,735
Granted, everybody begged me to not
make the decision to move out on my

262
00:18:03,825 –> 00:18:04,905
own and dah, dah, dah, I get that.

263
00:18:05,175 –> 00:18:07,545
But like, I had to get outta
that house, first of all.

264
00:18:08,265 –> 00:18:13,515
But like, to be fair, I mean,
it, it was fairly obvious that

265
00:18:13,515 –> 00:18:15,525
wasn’t gonna go well at 1.7.

266
00:18:16,530 –> 00:18:17,280
Not even a two point.

267
00:18:17,370 –> 00:18:18,360
Yeah, 1.7.

268
00:18:18,899 –> 00:18:22,949
And so, you know, I, I don’t
know, I just kinda, I had a belief

269
00:18:22,949 –> 00:18:25,110
in myself, like, I really did.

270
00:18:25,110 –> 00:18:28,020
And I don’t know where it came from
’cause I didn’t know I was smart.

271
00:18:28,450 –> 00:18:31,305
And so I just, it was part of my purpose.

272
00:18:31,305 –> 00:18:36,165
Like I was, I knew that I had this purpose
instilled in me at a very young age.

273
00:18:36,495 –> 00:18:40,185
And once I decided, I knew I was
gonna be in the counseling field,

274
00:18:40,425 –> 00:18:43,245
but I didn’t know which degree
path I would take or whatever.

275
00:18:43,395 –> 00:18:47,825
But once I decided on the degree
path, it was just a matter of when.

276
00:18:48,325 –> 00:18:50,175
It, it was never a matter of if.

277
00:18:50,175 –> 00:18:54,045
Like I, I knew, I don’t know, I just
was really encouraging of myself.

278
00:18:54,295 –> 00:18:56,545
Even when I did it a second
time, I was like, You know what?

279
00:18:56,965 –> 00:18:58,285
Okay, baby, still not your time.

280
00:18:58,285 –> 00:18:58,855
Still not your time.

281
00:18:58,855 –> 00:19:00,895
It’s okay, it’s okay,
we’ll do it again later.

282
00:19:01,255 –> 00:19:01,735
It’s all right.

283
00:19:02,095 –> 00:19:06,780
I mean, and I think too, like, you
know how financial aid will make

284
00:19:06,780 –> 00:19:10,170
you pay for your own schooling for
a little bit after you mess up a

285
00:19:10,170 –> 00:19:11,970
couple times and things like that.

286
00:19:12,210 –> 00:19:14,640
You know, it’s just a whole combination
of things of like, all right, baby,

287
00:19:14,640 –> 00:19:16,590
we’ve got to, got to lock in here.

288
00:19:16,860 –> 00:19:22,050
But I don’t, I never doubted that I
would eventually, that’s the weird thing.

289
00:19:22,140 –> 00:19:25,440
So I just kind of, I got more
and more mature, you know?

290
00:19:25,440 –> 00:19:28,650
I started to learn how to, I’ve
always been a little chaos, you know?

291
00:19:29,534 –> 00:19:35,475
And I kind of started to learn how to form
a system, uh, and, and man, with ADHD,

292
00:19:35,685 –> 00:19:42,314
again, I don’t have a diagnosis, but you
know, um, energetic cycles are a thing.

293
00:19:42,314 –> 00:19:44,834
And learning how to prioritize
and all of the things.

294
00:19:44,834 –> 00:19:47,925
So it was just a matter of putting
some pieces together in my brain

295
00:19:47,955 –> 00:19:51,414
to get a little more success, but
I never doubted I would do it.

296
00:19:51,414 –> 00:19:52,955
I don’t know, call me crazy.

297
00:19:54,074 –> 00:19:54,465
Yeah.

298
00:19:55,425 –> 00:20:00,375
You know, the, the thing that really
comes to mind is the crab in the

299
00:20:00,435 –> 00:20:03,564
bucket syndrome that we deal with.

300
00:20:03,564 –> 00:20:12,405
A lot of our peers, when we’re down in
a situation, they wanna keep us there.

301
00:20:12,705 –> 00:20:19,334
And we have to recognize the beauty
within ourself, the love of ourself,

302
00:20:19,334 –> 00:20:24,855
and recognize I’m worth something
and I have something to give.

303
00:20:25,635 –> 00:20:31,245
You started a podcast, I, I
started a podcast because I

304
00:20:31,245 –> 00:20:33,495
was so mad and disoriented.

305
00:20:33,495 –> 00:20:38,804
I couldn’t communicate effectively
and I needed healing, so I

306
00:20:38,804 –> 00:20:40,935
wanted something desperately.

307
00:20:42,075 –> 00:20:47,655
Starting that podcast was
the best decision, outside

308
00:20:47,655 –> 00:20:50,985
of my marriage, of my life.

309
00:20:51,165 –> 00:20:57,405
And this, this really brought
new perspective into my life.

310
00:20:57,405 –> 00:21:03,525
It, it brought other voices that,
I needed to challenge myself.

311
00:21:03,795 –> 00:21:11,445
I need to, needed to understand what,
what do I think and why do I think that?

312
00:21:11,775 –> 00:21:18,375
Digging into that deep, dark
self is really the driving force

313
00:21:18,764 –> 00:21:22,095
behind the Dead America Podcast.

314
00:21:22,455 –> 00:21:29,910
We all kind of feel that deadness
inside and we all know there’s something

315
00:21:29,910 –> 00:21:32,910
better than feeling this deadness.

316
00:21:33,630 –> 00:21:36,960
This is a journey that you’ve taken also.

317
00:21:36,960 –> 00:21:43,170
And what you are doing now is you’re
enlightening, you’re having conversation,

318
00:21:43,500 –> 00:21:46,500
and it’s so uplifting in many ways.

319
00:21:46,950 –> 00:21:51,360
How does that make you feel
and what, what’s your thoughts

320
00:21:51,360 –> 00:21:54,960
about therapy as podcasting?

321
00:21:56,945 –> 00:22:05,745
Well, um, first I would say,
Podcasting has really changed

322
00:22:05,745 –> 00:22:07,784
my life for the same reason.

323
00:22:08,264 –> 00:22:12,645
Um, it was a podcast guest
that introduced me to the book

324
00:22:12,645 –> 00:22:14,085
that changed everything for me.

325
00:22:14,085 –> 00:22:18,645
A book called The Finding Peace
Workbook by Troy Love on Amazon for

326
00:22:18,645 –> 00:22:20,264
like twenty-five bucks, it’s worth it.

327
00:22:20,385 –> 00:22:25,575
Um, it really broke shame down into
different archetypes and, and helped me

328
00:22:25,575 –> 00:22:27,524
understand what was happening in my brain.

329
00:22:27,524 –> 00:22:30,325
And so that was, that was a game changer.

330
00:22:30,325 –> 00:22:33,535
But more than that, I think I
felt silenced my whole life.

331
00:22:34,465 –> 00:22:38,365
Some, because I wasn’t allowed
to express feelings, others,

332
00:22:38,365 –> 00:22:40,855
because I was so afraid to be me.

333
00:22:41,005 –> 00:22:45,085
And so I really wrote more than
anything because I could craft

334
00:22:45,085 –> 00:22:46,165
a perfect sentence, you know?

335
00:22:47,625 –> 00:22:53,325
Um, podcasting’s allowed me to become
a lot more comfortable with speaking my

336
00:22:53,325 –> 00:22:55,605
truth instead of writing it perfectly.

337
00:22:55,605 –> 00:22:58,845
I’m so much more okay with being
messy with things, you know?

338
00:22:58,845 –> 00:23:00,945
Like just really imperfect.

339
00:23:00,945 –> 00:23:06,975
And I’ve, actually, I truly have branded
my show around being a no frills podcast.

340
00:23:07,610 –> 00:23:11,660
Totally authentic, raw,
real, pretty unedited.

341
00:23:11,900 –> 00:23:16,820
You know, like I only edit very, like
the beginning, like when I’m sitting

342
00:23:16,820 –> 00:23:18,950
there watching TikTok before they pop on.

343
00:23:18,980 –> 00:23:22,130
You know, like very few
edits happen on my show.

344
00:23:22,670 –> 00:23:28,130
And, um, it, it really, it’s helped me
so much to step into my own authority

345
00:23:28,130 –> 00:23:30,020
and really embody my own light.

346
00:23:30,470 –> 00:23:34,320
But also like I’m meeting
thought leaders, you know?

347
00:23:34,495 –> 00:23:37,795
So like, they’re, again, like you
said, they’re changing my paradigm,

348
00:23:37,795 –> 00:23:40,915
they’re changing, they’re
helping me grow as a human.

349
00:23:40,915 –> 00:23:44,965
They offer free services to me
too like, and I take ’em up on it.

350
00:23:45,265 –> 00:23:49,595
I had a, uh, a guest, Josie
Dumond, love her so much.

351
00:23:49,625 –> 00:23:53,125
She’s, oh God, I think she’s a
mindset coach and some other things.

352
00:23:53,125 –> 00:23:53,725
She’s amazing.

353
00:23:53,725 –> 00:23:54,595
She’s in the UK.

354
00:23:54,955 –> 00:23:59,940
But, um, she offered a free coaching
session for having her on as a guest.

355
00:24:00,180 –> 00:24:01,500
Well, I’m gonna take you up on that.

356
00:24:01,560 –> 00:24:02,550
Oh, change my life.

357
00:24:02,730 –> 00:24:06,120
She taught me how to get into the
energy I wanna be in anytime I’m not.

358
00:24:06,240 –> 00:24:11,730
Like I, that’s life altering information
and I got it just because I talked to her.

359
00:24:12,060 –> 00:24:16,110
And, and it provides this opportunity
for conversations that would probably

360
00:24:16,110 –> 00:24:17,385
never otherwise have happened.

361
00:24:17,385 –> 00:24:23,460
‘Cause I’m pretty shy as, as outgoing
as I can be and whatever, initiating

362
00:24:23,460 –> 00:24:25,920
conversation, I don’t want to at all.

363
00:24:26,220 –> 00:24:27,570
Um, unless it’s this.

364
00:24:27,570 –> 00:24:30,895
Like, I love deep conversations,
but I’m not gonna go and

365
00:24:30,895 –> 00:24:31,915
make small talk with people.

366
00:24:31,915 –> 00:24:32,875
I’ve always hated it.

367
00:24:33,085 –> 00:24:34,645
For a long time, I forced it.

368
00:24:34,645 –> 00:24:37,505
And I was just like, Go be funny,
go be the center of attention, blah,

369
00:24:37,505 –> 00:24:38,715
blah, blah, you know, do things.

370
00:24:38,785 –> 00:24:40,675
I hated it, I don’t like it.

371
00:24:40,675 –> 00:24:45,595
And so now I’m just really committed to
whatever I feel in the moment, I will do.

372
00:24:46,105 –> 00:24:48,715
But in terms of therapy on the
show, you know, that’s not, like

373
00:24:48,715 –> 00:24:57,240
it’s really, it, it’s more like my
clients get the same exact version

374
00:24:57,240 –> 00:25:00,210
of me that my podcast guests do.

375
00:25:00,540 –> 00:25:06,210
So I don’t, like, I’m bringing all
these industry leaders on and listening,

376
00:25:07,200 –> 00:25:11,490
learning, I’m sharing my own
learning, and growth, and whatever.

377
00:25:11,790 –> 00:25:15,990
And, and then I take that information
to clients sometimes and be

378
00:25:15,990 –> 00:25:17,970
like, Hey, I had this lady on.

379
00:25:17,970 –> 00:25:20,879
Sometimes I’ll send them the raw,
like, video of it because I’m like,

380
00:25:20,970 –> 00:25:23,460
This won’t air for a little bit,
but you gotta see this, you know?

381
00:25:23,760 –> 00:25:27,870
And so, uh, it all goes hand
in hand really well because A,

382
00:25:27,870 –> 00:25:30,120
I get to talk, people listen.

383
00:25:30,180 –> 00:25:31,980
Hello, that’s a beautiful thing.

384
00:25:32,160 –> 00:25:36,120
As somebody who never felt like
I was seen or heard as a child,

385
00:25:36,120 –> 00:25:40,110
or even in early adulthood, like,
ah, they listen to my advice.

386
00:25:40,110 –> 00:25:40,830
They take it.

387
00:25:40,830 –> 00:25:41,880
Like, oh my God.

388
00:25:42,000 –> 00:25:46,090
And so like, it’s still all
so meaningful to me, you know?

389
00:25:47,445 –> 00:25:48,075
Yeah.

390
00:25:48,315 –> 00:25:51,735
Yeah, and it really can uplift spirits.

391
00:25:51,915 –> 00:25:57,765
The big fascinating thing I find is
you never know who you’re helping

392
00:25:58,125 –> 00:26:00,315
and you never know who’s watching.

393
00:26:00,375 –> 00:26:07,215
And those industry leaders, they, they
really do watch and they, they are

394
00:26:07,215 –> 00:26:14,190
interested in your growth and they
anticipate what you are going to do next.

395
00:26:14,370 –> 00:26:21,130
And that, that really helps drive the
incentive to produce better podcasts

396
00:26:21,150 –> 00:26:24,300
and have better flowing content.

397
00:26:24,300 –> 00:26:26,100
And it’s okay to mess up.

398
00:26:26,190 –> 00:26:30,600
Like earlier on our conversation,
I had the mic muted.

399
00:26:31,000 –> 00:26:34,275
You know, it’s, it’s one of
those things and it’s okay.

400
00:26:35,115 –> 00:26:43,065
Because what you’re here to do is
foster curiosity and that curiosity

401
00:26:43,335 –> 00:26:45,495
brings growth in all of us.

402
00:26:45,795 –> 00:26:50,505
And that’s really truly the fascinating
thing I find behind podcasting.

403
00:26:52,125 –> 00:26:52,785
Yeah.

404
00:26:53,055 –> 00:26:57,435
Especially like, I don’t know what,
about, like anybody else, but I think,

405
00:26:57,435 –> 00:27:03,255
for me, I guess I don’t really go into
any conversation with any expectations

406
00:27:03,315 –> 00:27:07,425
other than to feel that light afterwards.

407
00:27:07,425 –> 00:27:11,385
‘Cause like I feel so good after having
one of these conversations, whether I’m

408
00:27:11,385 –> 00:27:14,025
on someone else’s show or they’re on mine.

409
00:27:14,235 –> 00:27:18,555
Like the synergy, like all
of it, it’s just so good.

410
00:27:18,555 –> 00:27:24,135
And I feel energized,
and creative, and loving.

411
00:27:24,225 –> 00:27:29,760
You know, like actually sometimes I’ll
get so much dopamine from a conversation

412
00:27:29,760 –> 00:27:34,230
that I have to like chill for a little
bit to like come back to baseline because

413
00:27:34,230 –> 00:27:37,710
you can have a really fast crash after
a good conversation ’cause you don’t

414
00:27:37,710 –> 00:27:40,710
know what to do with yourself with all
the chemicals that are floating around.

415
00:27:41,070 –> 00:27:44,100
It’s been a learning curve to
kind of understand that and how to

416
00:27:44,100 –> 00:27:46,140
take care of yourself after that.

417
00:27:47,040 –> 00:27:47,640
That’s right.

418
00:27:47,910 –> 00:27:51,840
You know, and also the anticipation.

419
00:27:52,365 –> 00:27:55,965
You have to learn to control anticipation.

420
00:27:56,205 –> 00:28:00,045
What could happen because of this,
and what, you know, the excitement,

421
00:28:00,045 –> 00:28:06,165
like you said, dopamine rush can
really influence your thought for

422
00:28:06,165 –> 00:28:08,475
a long time after a great episode.

423
00:28:09,435 –> 00:28:14,805
And, and I, I have found that
crash to be one of those things.

424
00:28:14,895 –> 00:28:21,600
A host really needs to learn to
just, hey, it is what it is and I,

425
00:28:21,600 –> 00:28:23,760
I’m looking forward to the next one.

426
00:28:24,570 –> 00:28:26,940
Instead of hanging on
to what just happened.

427
00:28:27,210 –> 00:28:29,040
You just gotta go take you a nap.

428
00:28:30,285 –> 00:28:31,125
Yeah, exactly.

429
00:28:31,125 –> 00:28:34,035
But I mean, I started to
recognize chemical depletion

430
00:28:34,035 –> 00:28:35,475
for what it is, you know?

431
00:28:35,565 –> 00:28:39,375
And actually that’s what helped me
work through the fact that I used to

432
00:28:39,555 –> 00:28:44,865
self-sabotage by spending money that I
didn’t necessarily need to spend all the

433
00:28:44,865 –> 00:28:47,595
time, uh, because of chemical depletion.

434
00:28:47,625 –> 00:28:51,885
Because I, I felt it after
something and I was like, Ooh.

435
00:28:52,125 –> 00:28:54,714
Because I was like, what
do I do with this energy?

436
00:28:54,765 –> 00:28:55,795
What do I do with this energy?

437
00:28:55,815 –> 00:28:57,195
And then I had no energy.

438
00:28:57,195 –> 00:28:58,905
And I was like, You know what?

439
00:28:58,905 –> 00:29:04,335
This is when I usually feel bored and then
the narrative when I’m bored is, you’re

440
00:29:04,335 –> 00:29:06,975
bored and lonely ’cause nobody likes you.

441
00:29:07,125 –> 00:29:08,685
Nobody wants to be around you.

442
00:29:08,955 –> 00:29:14,205
And it really, like, it was after
a dopamine like crash to chemical

443
00:29:14,205 –> 00:29:15,735
depletion that I put that together.

444
00:29:15,735 –> 00:29:17,895
And I was like, Now I know why I do that.

445
00:29:17,895 –> 00:29:18,615
And I stopped.

446
00:29:18,675 –> 00:29:22,365
Like I just stopped doing it ’cause
I knew that was attached to a

447
00:29:22,365 –> 00:29:24,165
narrative that wasn’t true, you know?

448
00:29:25,245 –> 00:29:25,635
Yeah.

449
00:29:26,055 –> 00:29:30,045
Yeah, and it’s exciting when you
actually find that trigger point

450
00:29:30,105 –> 00:29:32,625
and you can actually address it.

451
00:29:33,165 –> 00:29:37,365
Finally, once in your
life you can, Oh wow.

452
00:29:38,445 –> 00:29:39,465
That’s what that is.

453
00:29:39,915 –> 00:29:48,105
So it, it is the whole learning experience
that you can get surrounding these

454
00:29:48,105 –> 00:29:55,335
podcasts and more so what you can teach
others that are listening to the podcast.

455
00:29:55,815 –> 00:29:57,835
This is what you’re here for, Malisa.

456
00:29:57,855 –> 00:30:05,055
So could you go through what your
services are, how you help people, and

457
00:30:05,415 –> 00:30:14,085
also, you know, how they can get ahold of
you and get in touch and work with you?

458
00:30:15,165 –> 00:30:15,795
Yeah.

459
00:30:16,545 –> 00:30:21,255
So, um, I’ve kind of closed the
books for traditional therapy,

460
00:30:21,255 –> 00:30:23,295
like as a one-on-one recurring.

461
00:30:23,385 –> 00:30:27,465
Um, I’m maxed out on clients, but
what I’m doing is I’m offering

462
00:30:27,495 –> 00:30:30,645
guidance sessions to general public.

463
00:30:30,705 –> 00:30:36,764
Um, I even have a complimentary session
if like my other offers are not within

464
00:30:36,764 –> 00:30:41,324
somebody’s budget because I am committed
to access to mental health care.

465
00:30:42,014 –> 00:30:47,054
Um, but I have, um, just
different levels of guidance.

466
00:30:47,054 –> 00:30:53,715
And so what I do is I actually, ’cause I’m
a woo woo girl, I actually use astrology.

467
00:30:53,715 –> 00:30:57,645
I’m a baby astrologer, like I’m a
student of astrology, but I, I can give

468
00:30:57,645 –> 00:31:01,365
you a general understanding to help
support the information I’m giving you.

469
00:31:01,695 –> 00:31:04,095
I also use tarot if people
are comfortable with that.

470
00:31:04,125 –> 00:31:07,335
Um, and then just all my
background as a therapist.

471
00:31:07,335 –> 00:31:12,314
But really more, just like, I always
tell my clients, it’s not my LCSW

472
00:31:12,314 –> 00:31:13,875
that makes me really good at this.

473
00:31:13,875 –> 00:31:18,855
It’s, it’s my own understanding
of the human experience and

474
00:31:18,855 –> 00:31:20,175
the things I’ve gone through.

475
00:31:20,475 –> 00:31:23,790
Like, my education did not
teach me anything about this.

476
00:31:23,790 –> 00:31:30,060
So, um, I have the credentials,
but it, like, I’m heart and

477
00:31:30,060 –> 00:31:31,919
soul into this, you know?

478
00:31:32,189 –> 00:31:41,580
Um, and so, yeah, uh, uh, easiest way to
find me is, empoweredwithmalisahepner.org

479
00:31:41,889 –> 00:31:45,000
or @ malisa.hepner on Instagram.

480
00:31:45,060 –> 00:31:49,050
And that, there’s easy links to my
link tree to go schedule with me.

481
00:31:49,050 –> 00:31:54,900
But I have varied tiers of the sessions
to give people plenty of options.

482
00:31:54,900 –> 00:31:58,950
And trying to figure out
how to connect like a pay

483
00:31:59,429 –> 00:32:05,129
situation to it, like a, a PayPal
paying for, or Klarna, you know, after

484
00:32:05,129 –> 00:32:09,270
pay, eventually I’ll get that set up
to where people have those options.

485
00:32:09,270 –> 00:32:14,310
But I’m a one man show a little
bit, so just, you know, I slowly add

486
00:32:14,310 –> 00:32:16,679
things to the website or whatever.

487
00:32:16,950 –> 00:32:23,850
Um, doing a, doing more public speaking
and just kind of sharing my story.

488
00:32:23,910 –> 00:32:28,710
Uh, but also using my framework
of, quiet the noise, connect

489
00:32:28,710 –> 00:32:31,320
to self, and embody the light.

490
00:32:31,320 –> 00:32:32,400
That’s kind of the message.

491
00:32:32,400 –> 00:32:35,700
And I kind of break those down for
people in my talks or workshops.

492
00:32:35,700 –> 00:32:42,420
I have, um, a summit coming up on the 31st
and it’s called The Empowerment Exchange,

493
00:32:42,750 –> 00:32:48,900
and it’s me and three other phenomenal
people and we are just each giving little

494
00:32:48,900 –> 00:32:51,840
workshops on, on our own little thing.

495
00:32:51,840 –> 00:32:54,899
But basically like how to, how you
can fall in love with your life, how

496
00:32:54,899 –> 00:32:58,290
to build up your inner world when the
world around you is falling apart,

497
00:32:58,290 –> 00:33:02,669
how to love yourself, how to change the
way you think, you know, things like that.

498
00:33:03,000 –> 00:33:08,370
And, um, right now until the 17th,
no, we’re past that, so, yeah.

499
00:33:08,370 –> 00:33:08,429
Um,

500
00:33:10,814 –> 00:33:16,965
well, right now there is no sell on
tickets, but if you, you know, hear

501
00:33:16,965 –> 00:33:20,085
this before the 31st, I don’t know when
you’re planning for this to air, but,

502
00:33:20,325 –> 00:33:23,135
and you want a ticket, you let me know.

503
00:33:23,135 –> 00:33:28,685
I’ll, I’ll, I’ll get you a, a cheaper, uh,
I’ll get you a code for, for like 75% off.

504
00:33:28,764 –> 00:33:32,190
But, um, yeah, we’re just
trying to change the world.

505
00:33:32,220 –> 00:33:36,930
So I, I, I actually started The
Empowerment Exchange, I picked

506
00:33:36,930 –> 00:33:40,200
these people because of the
impact they had on my life when

507
00:33:40,200 –> 00:33:41,640
I met them through my podcast.

508
00:33:42,000 –> 00:33:47,460
And they each do different stuff, like
one’s a human design expert, one, um,

509
00:33:48,405 –> 00:33:51,375
teaches you how to use
music and spirituality.

510
00:33:51,675 –> 00:33:55,245
And that music is spirituality
and music is everything.

511
00:33:55,365 –> 00:33:59,925
And then a spirituality coach
who talks about the importance of

512
00:33:59,925 –> 00:34:03,645
spirituality, how to like implement
some spirituality from the ground up.

513
00:34:03,645 –> 00:34:04,425
You know, things like that.

514
00:34:04,425 –> 00:34:10,034
So we’re just different aspects of healing
basically, and we’re just bringing it all

515
00:34:10,034 –> 00:34:11,925
together for a three hour little summit.

516
00:34:12,014 –> 00:34:16,674
Um, but yeah, that’s kind of what I’m
doing is just, I, I show the world

517
00:34:16,674 –> 00:34:22,404
on my podcast, through conversations,
how to be more vulnerable, how

518
00:34:22,404 –> 00:34:25,915
to show up for yourself, how
to be your most authentic self.

519
00:34:26,125 –> 00:34:29,574
Just through conversations I’m
just modeling that stuff, you know?

520
00:34:29,574 –> 00:34:33,205
And, and, and people hear about
my learning and growth and other

521
00:34:33,205 –> 00:34:36,174
people’s learning and growth, and
I just feel like hearing people’s

522
00:34:36,174 –> 00:34:39,600
story helps you apply it to your
life the way you need to, you know?

523
00:34:41,190 –> 00:34:45,990
So, you know, that leads us back
to the beginning, be the change

524
00:34:45,990 –> 00:34:48,120
you want to see in the world.

525
00:34:48,810 –> 00:34:53,490
And, and if we live that
aspect, it’s a wonderful thing.

526
00:34:53,820 –> 00:34:57,060
Malisa, is there anything that
we’ve missed that you’d like

527
00:34:57,060 –> 00:34:58,680
to cover before we end this?

528
00:34:59,220 –> 00:35:00,240
I don’t think so.

529
00:35:00,240 –> 00:35:03,750
I, I guess I would just, I would
just sum it up again and just, and

530
00:35:03,750 –> 00:35:10,035
just say like, It is, It’s not as
hard as we’re making it out to be.

531
00:35:10,365 –> 00:35:14,955
The reason my show is called Emotionally
Unavailable is because we are all

532
00:35:14,955 –> 00:35:19,125
emotionally unavailable until we
understand that fact about ourselves.

533
00:35:19,665 –> 00:35:25,215
We can continue the narrative of
relationships, or the only place that

534
00:35:25,215 –> 00:35:30,345
attachment, you know, disorders or
maladaptive attachment pops up, it’s,

535
00:35:30,375 –> 00:35:34,785
it’s showing up in every minute of every
day of your life until you address it.

536
00:35:35,640 –> 00:35:42,569
And, um, I just want people to
understand that the key to all

537
00:35:42,569 –> 00:35:48,089
of this really is learning to
embrace every ounce of who you are.

538
00:35:48,089 –> 00:35:51,660
And I would just repeat what I said in the
beginning, Jamie from Australia taught me

539
00:35:51,660 –> 00:35:55,379
this, That, uh, life is not for healing.

540
00:35:55,379 –> 00:35:58,080
We heal so that we can live
life and get the most out of it.

541
00:35:58,080 –> 00:36:01,680
We’re here for a very specific experience.

542
00:36:01,950 –> 00:36:04,049
Experience it, love yourself, you know?

543
00:36:04,080 –> 00:36:07,230
Let yourself heal enough to
be able to receive all of the

544
00:36:07,230 –> 00:36:08,879
things life has to offer you.

545
00:36:09,270 –> 00:36:11,100
And if you want help with
that, reach, reach out.

546
00:36:13,185 –> 00:36:19,065
And, and it’s always okay to
be who you truly are, don’t let

547
00:36:19,065 –> 00:36:21,705
anybody tell you any different.

548
00:36:22,384 –> 00:36:25,845
Malisa, it’s been a pleasure
speaking with you today.

549
00:36:25,845 –> 00:36:28,455
Thank you for sharing here
on the podcast with us.

550
00:36:28,875 –> 00:36:30,944
Thank you for having me, had a great time.

551
00:36:34,035 –> 00:36:35,714
Thank you for joining us today.

552
00:36:36,345 –> 00:36:42,555
If you found this podcast enlightening,
entertaining, educational in any way,

553
00:36:43,335 –> 00:36:49,754
please share, like, subscribe, and join
us right back here next week for another

554
00:36:49,754 –> 00:36:53,145
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.

555
00:36:53,444 –> 00:36:58,995
I’m Ed Watters, your host, enjoy
your afternoon wherever you might be.