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Can you feel it coming?

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Something’s waking up inside.

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Hearts ablaze, we’re standing
tall breaking chains of yesterday.

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Dead America finds its voice,
in the darkness we make choice.

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Truth and healing lead the way,
hearts ablaze, we’re here to stay.

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Rise from ashes come what
may, we’re finding hope

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in disarray.

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Today we are speaking with
Jessica Morris, she is an author.

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She has a couple books out now,
working on a few more, the books

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are Higher Powered and Dewdrops.

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Jessica, could you please
introduce yourself?

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And let people know just a
little more about you, please.

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Sure.

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Uh, it’s great to be with you today, Ed.

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And I am, uh, just thrilled to be able
to have a platform to talk more about,

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uh, where I came from and everything.

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Um, I, I am an author, I love that
that’s how you’re introducing me

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because it’s the thing that I wanted
to do my whole life and have spent

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many, many years leading to that.

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Uh, I am also a practicing spiritual
director, uh, which I sort of tripped

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over when I, I went to seminary to, um,
specifically not to become a minister.

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Most people go to seminary
to become a minister.

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But I went there to learn the Bible for
myself, um, which my husband rolled his

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eyes when I said that because there’s not
like a new big paycheck on the other side

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of that when you’re just going to learn it
for yourself and not for a new profession.

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Uh, but I grew up the, I’m, I’m the
daughter of an alcoholic, uh, minister.

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And so my upbringing was really
weird when it came to God.

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I was very confused about
what God thought of me.

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Um, I’m the youngest of four and when I
was very young, my father told me that I

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was a mistake and so I just assumed that
meant that God thought I was a mistake

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because my dad was also my minister.

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And he was also a really good minister,
he was definitely called to be a minister.

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Uh, the people that he ministered
to, he was very good at speaking,

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counseling, being with people, he
knew exactly, I mean, he really

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did have a gift for all of that.

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Uh, he didn’t know how to do that
with his family and he was, um, became

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very violent, um, the more he drank.

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And, uh, that was just, it was, and
my mom was the classic codependent.

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She was raised by an alcoholic
and so she was really good

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at being the minister’s wife.

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And she was a teacher in this very small
town where I grew up and so she kept

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everything, I mean, we were trained
that, you know, we didn’t talk about

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anything that went on inside of our home.

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And, you know, the people in the town
knew that my father drank because it

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was a very small town, a lot of hunters,
uh, hunters and fishermen, and, um,

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you know, blue collar type people.

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Um, not that there’s anything wrong
with that, but they, you know, they

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work hard and they party hard and
he would go out drinking with them.

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And I think that that sort of endeared
him to them in a way because here’s the

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minister drinking with us, so it’s okay,
you know, he’s out drinking and smoking

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with the guys at the firehouse and, you
know, that, that was just how we rolled.

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It was also a very different
time in this world.

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I, you know, was raised in the
seventies and the eighties and

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so, you know, it was before all
the drunk driving stuff, you know?

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And, and you know, cops would find him,
the cops in the town would find him

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in the middle of a cornfield in his
car and they’d, they’d lead him home

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while he drove his car home, you know?

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And I mean, there were all kinds
of crazy stories like that.

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Uh, but, but that’s very
tumultuous to grow up in that.

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And, um, and then I very
quickly became addicted myself.

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Um, and I don’t know, I can tell you
that my food addiction, my addiction to

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food, I believe I was born with that.

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I do not remember a time in my life when
I was not using food, uh, as a comfort.

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I mean, food was my best friend
right up until it turned on me.

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Um, and then I started drinking
pretty early as well, um, and using

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the excuse that I’m having fun.

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My dad’s a jerk, but I’m
having fun, you know?

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And, uh, that very quickly became
a problem and the two addictions

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really, uh, played off of each other.

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You know, because my, um, my food
addiction had a lot of that up

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and down yo-yo dieting and, um, I
tried to be anorexic, I couldn’t do

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that because I love food too much.

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You know, um, but I even tried to
be bulimic because when I was in,

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in high school, they, they had a
lot of TV movies about girls who

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were bulimic and people helped them.

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And people didn’t look at those
girls like there was something

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wrong with them, you know?

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Whereas I was just overweight and
nobody was helping me, you know?

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Um, and so I try to become bulimic and
I, I, I couldn’t, I don’t know if I

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don’t have a gag reflex or what, but
I, I couldn’t make myself throw up.

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And then I discovered early on in my
drinking career that when you drank

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to extremes, you would throw up.

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And so, uh, it was, it was a nightmare.

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You can see where I’m
going with this, right?

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Uh, and then in the middle of all
of it, uh, was me trying to find a

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husband who was nothing like my father.

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And that was an absolute disaster
because every guy I went out

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with was exactly like him.

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You know, because that’s what we do,

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we, we go for people who, who are,
um, who are, we’re comfortable with.

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And so that’s a really long introduction.

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But see what happens is I start talking
about this and then I, I just keep going.

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But that’s where all of this, you know,
my, the first time I remember writing

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and receiving comfort from writing,
uh, was when I was in fourth grade.

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Mrs. Gehrig had us write our first
poems and, uh, that was it for

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me, I was hooked and I used it.

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I rarely shared it with people
until I was in, in like, later

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in high school and college.

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Um, ’cause you know, I was afraid
nothing was ever good enough, you know?

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And unless it was perfect, I
was not gonna put it out there.

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Uh, and there’s no grade level for poetry.

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I mean, it’s very, um, artistic and,
you know, I was using it in a way

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that was very vulnerable because
I was, um, I was really putting

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myself out there in my poetry.

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And more, what I’ve discovered now,
I’m actually, one of the books that

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I’m working on now is a collection
of poetry and what I’m, it, I’m

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calling The, The Collection Of
Poetry, This is how God speaks to me.

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Because what I’m recognizing is that
as I’m going back and reading now,

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these are poems that I’ve been posting
on my blog since 2017, and what

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I’m seeing is that there’s a lot of
wisdom in this poetry that I know at

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that time in my life I didn’t have.

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So I know that that was God
giving me direction before I

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even knew that it was direction.

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Do, do you know what I mean?

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Like that, that sounds a little
crazy, but that’s, so that’s

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a really long introduction.

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That, that’s all right.

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We, we love long introductions
here at the Dead America Podcast.

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And the thing that captures me
the most is, you were raised

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very similar to me in the time.

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However, my parents were,
uh, partiers, drunkards.

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And, you know, the, the one thing
that stands out is, I, I received my

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learner’s permit, driver’s license, you
know, at the age of sixteen back then.

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And this, this took us on a journey
because all of the drunks climbed

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in the back of the truck and two up
front with me driving them around.

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And an Idaho state trooper,
you know, he pulls us over.

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Everybody’s just wasted and
here I am thinking we’re all

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going to the hoosegow here.

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And, uh, the Idaho State police officer,
you know, said, What is happening here?

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And ended up, uh, he, he escorted
us on our way home and made sure we

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made it and that’s as far as it went.

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So the time has really changed.

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But that timeframe that you’re
talking about, the seventies,

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early seventies into the eighties,
eighties, I was, you know, getting

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married and moving on to real life.

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That really developed me in that timeframe
where alcohol was prevalent, cigarettes.

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You know, smoking in the grocery
store with ashes hanging over the,

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uh, produce, it used to freak me out.

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It’s like, What is this?

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And now that I have control over my life,
I look back and think, Wow, no wonder I

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was so addicted and strung out on things.

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And so how much did that timeframe
play in the way you handled things?

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Because we didn’t have a lot of
help during that time period.

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Right.

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If there, it was not, you know, there
were no school psychiatrists, there

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were no, you know, like you maybe had a
school nurse if you were lucky, you know?

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Um, and you know, but I remember, I
remember going to my Girl Scout leader,

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um, and this is, you know, like, and
asking her about certain things that I

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should have been asking my mom about.

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And it wasn’t because my mom wasn’t a
loving woman, it was just by the time I

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came along, like I said, I’m the youngest
of four and my mom also had my father

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who was like a giant toddler, you know?

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I mean, he was just a
train wreck, you know?

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I mean, and so by the time I came along
and I was, if I wasn’t a mistake, I was

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a surprise, you know, um, not planned.

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And, um, you know, so she was tired.

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She was, she was tired.

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And my, um, how I coped really, my
sister, who is, uh, the oldest in my

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family, she’s six years older than I
am, and she pretty much, uh, you know,

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I don’t think she did this consciously,
but she took me on as her own.

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And she, and to this day, she is like,
she’s my parent, she’s my best friend,

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she’s, she’s the one who came to me when
my drinking was completely outta control.

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Of all my family, she’s the only
one who’s ever really called me out.

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And I know that was hard for her
to do that because I mean, we

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are, we are tight, you know, and
I’m, I’m like her baby, you know?

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I mean, it’s weird to say that,
I’m fifty-five years old, but,

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you know, I, I am like her baby
when I graduated from seminary.

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I mean, I think she’s more proud
in the picture than I am, you

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know, because I finally am clean.

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You know, I did, it took me about a year
after she, she asked me or talked to me

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about my alcohol to do anything about it.

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I mean, that’s how much addiction really
takes over your life is it doesn’t even

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matter who’s begging you to get well.

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But she, she took, she took me under
her wing and she took me everywhere

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with her as soon as she got her license.

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And she, I mean, I knew all her friends, I
was like everybody’s little sister because

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she took me outta the house whenever she
could get me outta the house, you know?

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And, and my siblings in
between, we have two,

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I have a sister and a
brother in between us.

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They were sort of like the escape artists.

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They were very smart, they were
both really, really intelligent.

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Not that we aren’t, but they
were, you know, like my brother’s

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crazy, IT math, you know, smart.

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That makes my head hurt
when I even think about it.

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And then my other sister’s a
doctor, you know, they’re very

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much overachieving, you know?

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And, um, so they, when they both went to
college, they pretty much never came home.

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You know, they, they stayed there in
the summers, they, you know, and that’s

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kind of how they were with school.

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You know, they always had something
going on in some activity or whatever.

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And while my older sister and I
both played sports, that’s kind

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of where it sort of, we weren’t as
involved, let’s say, as they were.

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And so we just hung out,
we did everything together.

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And, um, so she, she really was,
you know, when I think about

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how did I cope with that time?

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I think it was, she coped with it by,
you know, taking me away from the house.

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Um, and, and I wrote a lot.

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I wrote a lot, especially when I got
to college and I had nowhere to go with

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this stuff because everybody, I was
looking around me and thinking, you

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know, basically I never told anybody
that my dad told me I was a mistake.

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Like, that was a, that was a secret
that I held inside of me ’cause I

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thought if other people know this,
then they’re gonna discard me too.

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And as much as that harmed my
relationship with God, and this is

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gonna sound crazy, um, it actually
made me feel closer to Jesus.

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Because, and, and I talk about this
a little bit in my book, because

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how I looked at it, I don’t know if
you remember, um, or if you ever saw

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00:16:01,800 –> 00:16:06,570
it, but there was a miniseries on
television in the seventies and they

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00:16:06,570 –> 00:16:08,820
would play it every year around Easter.

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00:16:08,820 –> 00:16:14,040
It was called Jesus of Nazareth,
and it was from the birth of

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Jesus to the resurrection.

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00:16:16,620 –> 00:16:20,610
And we had just gotten, I’m
really gonna date myself now,

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00:16:20,610 –> 00:16:24,030
we had just gotten a beta max.

213
00:16:24,060 –> 00:16:26,730
Do you remember the beta before VHS?

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00:16:27,990 –> 00:16:33,600
And so I had, I had recorded it,
uh, I think I was probably like

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00:16:33,600 –> 00:16:38,190
ten years old, and I recorded it
on like four tapes ’cause it took a

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00:16:38,190 –> 00:16:40,320
lot of those tapes to record stuff.

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00:16:40,980 –> 00:16:44,790
And I would just watch it
over and over and over again.

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00:16:45,675 –> 00:16:54,645
And in it, the guy who played
Jesus was so calm and, um, just

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00:16:54,645 –> 00:17:00,705
his presence on screen was very,
uh, it just filled me with peace.

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00:17:01,425 –> 00:17:05,984
And the part, and it was, and,
and actually if you’ve seen the

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00:17:05,984 –> 00:17:10,575
passion of the Christ, you know what
the beating looked like for real.

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00:17:10,635 –> 00:17:14,745
And so when I look back at
Jesus of Nazareth now, I

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think, well, that was nothing.

224
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But at the time it was pretty
violent what they were showing you.

225
00:17:19,785 –> 00:17:23,234
It was, it really was nothing
compared to what we see today.

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00:17:23,745 –> 00:17:26,595
But when I was a kid, it was huge.

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00:17:26,625 –> 00:17:32,895
And what I saw was Jesus’ father was
abandoning him and beating him, just

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00:17:32,895 –> 00:17:39,045
the way my father wasn’t, was abandoning
me and punishing me and beating me.

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00:17:39,045 –> 00:17:44,205
And so that’s how I related
it in my diseased little brain

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and, and it kept me connected.

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00:17:47,805 –> 00:17:51,735
Like I never, as much as I ran
away from the church, I ran away

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00:17:51,735 –> 00:17:56,805
from God, I always loved Jesus
and I knew that Jesus loved me.

233
00:17:57,735 –> 00:18:03,285
And, you know, I remember when I
said that in seminary and, uh, my one

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00:18:03,285 –> 00:18:08,295
professor was just like, it was like
the most horrible thing he’d ever heard.

235
00:18:08,535 –> 00:18:10,335
And I’m like, No, no,
you don’t understand.

236
00:18:10,335 –> 00:18:14,115
This is what kept me connected,
This is a good thing, you know?

237
00:18:14,175 –> 00:18:17,535
Um, because God uses everything.

238
00:18:18,585 –> 00:18:19,575
That’s how I see it.

239
00:18:21,255 –> 00:18:21,715
That’s right.

240
00:18:22,665 –> 00:18:22,905
Yeah.

241
00:18:23,554 –> 00:18:26,070
You know, I, I relate well with that.

242
00:18:26,129 –> 00:18:31,830
You know, through all of the disasters
I’ve been through, the thick and

243
00:18:31,830 –> 00:18:38,699
the thin, it, it’s apparent that
Jesus himself was there with me.

244
00:18:39,159 –> 00:18:44,520
You know, I often think
about the poem, Footsteps.

245
00:18:44,879 –> 00:18:52,350
Where they’re walking down the beach
and you see one set of footprints,

246
00:18:53,160 –> 00:18:56,070
and then it turns into two.

247
00:18:56,850 –> 00:19:07,200
And he, he says, Well, why, why were
you not there with me all this time?

248
00:19:08,100 –> 00:19:10,379
Those are the times I was packing you.

249
00:19:11,010 –> 00:19:13,410
And, you know,

250
00:19:15,990 –> 00:19:22,890
as I studied and researched you,
there was a portion of your life

251
00:19:22,890 –> 00:19:29,040
where you kind of just broke it
down and said, Hey, enough’s enough.

252
00:19:29,250 –> 00:19:35,340
And I, I had that moment where I
had the f.u. fight with God himself.

253
00:19:35,790 –> 00:19:41,310
I found myself homeless, shoving
all of my possessions into this

254
00:19:41,310 –> 00:19:51,060
little box storage unit, and my
wife, my dog, we were just alone.

255
00:19:51,060 –> 00:19:56,040
And I didn’t know what I was going
to do, where we were going to

256
00:19:56,040 –> 00:19:58,140
go, how we were going to survive.

257
00:19:58,680 –> 00:20:05,790
And I, I remember having that,
Hey, what are you doing to me?

258
00:20:05,790 –> 00:20:07,110
Why am I here?

259
00:20:07,110 –> 00:20:15,985
And, you know, it, it, it took me
to the place of realizing that all

260
00:20:16,050 –> 00:20:20,205
of my life, I was living for myself.

261
00:20:20,895 –> 00:20:25,695
And He broke me, He broke me
into little pieces, rubble.

262
00:20:26,175 –> 00:20:36,074
And that rock I was, now He put that
into His own form and He formed concrete.

263
00:20:36,705 –> 00:20:40,155
And now my life with Christ is solid.

264
00:20:40,574 –> 00:20:47,445
And I, I’m here on the podcast and I
speak to non-believers, I talk to, you

265
00:20:47,445 –> 00:20:53,865
know, people that just, people shouldn’t
talk to in the eyes of Christians,

266
00:20:54,135 –> 00:20:55,875
but that’s where they’re wrong.

267
00:20:55,995 –> 00:21:04,215
You know, Jesus spent His time with
these broken people and He, He showed

268
00:21:04,215 –> 00:21:08,594
them how to live and this is important.

269
00:21:08,594 –> 00:21:15,254
People so often focus on their
own self and its selfish.

270
00:21:15,975 –> 00:21:22,485
When we open our eyes and we
discover we all live here together

271
00:21:22,485 –> 00:21:27,735
and it’s all working together,
this is truly when we’re reborn.

272
00:21:28,245 –> 00:21:33,735
And when that moment hits,
what was that like for you?

273
00:21:36,285 –> 00:21:39,495
Oh, well, it was, um,

274
00:21:41,775 –> 00:21:46,495
wow, that’s, it was a
living hell at first.

275
00:21:47,345 –> 00:21:57,135
Uh, you know, I mean, because I was,
um, not only was I an addict, okay, uh,

276
00:21:57,165 –> 00:22:04,065
very actively food addicted, alcohol
addicted, uh, but I was also the other

277
00:22:04,065 –> 00:22:13,395
side of the coin, which is that crazy
codependent, um, you know, just trying

278
00:22:13,395 –> 00:22:18,345
to manipulate all the addicts around
me to do what I wanted them to do.

279
00:22:19,095 –> 00:22:24,855
Um, with the people pleasing, and the,
you know, manipulation, and the, all of

280
00:22:24,855 –> 00:22:29,804
that underhanded stuff that you can’t
even really point at when you’re, you

281
00:22:29,804 –> 00:22:34,425
know, it’s, it’s, it’s so much easier
to point at the food and the booze

282
00:22:34,725 –> 00:22:36,765
and go, There’s your problem, Jessica.

283
00:22:36,945 –> 00:22:40,155
Put those things aside and
all will be well, you know?

284
00:22:40,635 –> 00:22:44,655
And the problem with that is that
you remove those things and what

285
00:22:44,655 –> 00:22:48,255
happens is all the things that you’ve
been, for me anyway, all the things

286
00:22:48,255 –> 00:22:54,255
I was pushing down with those things
started to rise to the surface.

287
00:22:54,645 –> 00:23:01,665
The trauma of my childhood, the abuse,
the mental, more the mental abuse and

288
00:23:01,665 –> 00:23:03,619
the spiritual abuse than the physical.

289
00:23:03,619 –> 00:23:03,945
Like,

290
00:23:03,945 –> 00:23:09,345
I would’ve much rather my father beat the
crap outta me than any of the things he

291
00:23:09,345 –> 00:23:14,940
said to me because I can tell you that
the things he said to me still play.

292
00:23:15,629 –> 00:23:20,040
Like even though I’ve gone through, in
my early recovery, when I, once I put

293
00:23:20,040 –> 00:23:27,030
the food and the booze down, I, I, um,
I had a significant amount of years with

294
00:23:27,030 –> 00:23:34,950
a really, really gifted man, uh, who was
an addictions counselor and he helped

295
00:23:34,950 –> 00:23:44,100
me to, to kind of like uncover all those
things and recognize that not only was

296
00:23:44,100 –> 00:23:49,800
I the problem in that I was the addict,
but I was also playing the victim.

297
00:23:50,520 –> 00:23:56,639
I enjoyed the victim role
to a really weird extent.

298
00:23:56,639 –> 00:24:01,409
You know, like it, it was comfortable,
I knew how to be the victim.

299
00:24:02,100 –> 00:24:08,220
And I’ll never forget when he
said to me, oh, this blew my mind,

300
00:24:08,250 –> 00:24:13,120
he said, you know, Jessica, he said,
You’re a victim until you’re eighteen

301
00:24:13,800 –> 00:24:15,690
and after that, you’re a volunteer.

302
00:24:16,830 –> 00:24:21,659
And you’ve been volunteering, you’ve
been volunteering for a long time.

303
00:24:22,169 –> 00:24:26,580
It’s time for you to take
control of your life.

304
00:24:27,000 –> 00:24:31,590
And by that I mean, not manipulating
the crap out of everyone around

305
00:24:31,590 –> 00:24:36,690
you, but putting the onus on you to
be responsible for your feelings.

306
00:24:36,690 –> 00:24:40,110
You know, to not, you know, when
I would, I would say things like,

307
00:24:40,110 –> 00:24:42,060
Well, he made me feel that way.

308
00:24:42,870 –> 00:24:47,070
And he’d go, Nobody, nobody has
that much power over you unless

309
00:24:47,070 –> 00:24:49,800
you give it to them, you know?

310
00:24:49,800 –> 00:24:57,090
And it is so true when you start, when you
just change your mind a little bit in that

311
00:24:57,090 –> 00:24:59,820
direction, but I’m, I’m getting ahead.

312
00:24:59,820 –> 00:25:04,800
You know, the living hell came, uh, I,
I am, I, I don’t know if this is what

313
00:25:04,800 –> 00:25:08,520
you were referencing, but, and I talk
about this in the very beginning of

314
00:25:08,520 –> 00:25:12,389
the book, when Jesus appeared to me,

315
00:25:12,840 –> 00:25:21,270
um, I was a couple years out of college
and just really in the throes of my

316
00:25:21,270 –> 00:25:28,620
alcoholism and was, um, going back
to my college campus to party and,

317
00:25:28,800 –> 00:25:32,699
because that’s what you do when you’re a
professional, you go back and you party

318
00:25:32,699 –> 00:25:37,889
with your college friends all the time,
and it was, it was a January night,

319
00:25:37,889 –> 00:25:44,310
it was freezing cold and, um, I was
outside of this party by myself smoking

320
00:25:44,310 –> 00:25:47,130
a cigarette and I was hating my life.

321
00:25:47,160 –> 00:25:51,420
My friends were getting married, um,
some of them were even having babies

322
00:25:51,420 –> 00:25:57,540
at that point, you know, and I just
looked up at the sky and saw nothing.

323
00:25:57,540 –> 00:26:00,480
But, you know, it was an
absolutely gorgeous, clear

324
00:26:00,480 –> 00:26:02,430
night and a gazillion stars

325
00:26:02,430 –> 00:26:07,380
and all I saw was my hatred for
God and what He had done to me.

326
00:26:07,560 –> 00:26:11,760
You know, I was His victim, you
know, and I let Him have it.

327
00:26:11,820 –> 00:26:16,890
And I told Him everything, I
yelled at Him and I asked Him

328
00:26:16,890 –> 00:26:18,630
when it was gonna be my turn.

329
00:26:19,320 –> 00:26:22,440
You know, when did I get to
have a life that was wonderful.

330
00:26:22,980 –> 00:26:35,399
And, uh, I had this moment of warmth, uh,
come over me and I knew with every ounce

331
00:26:35,399 –> 00:26:41,159
of my being that if I turned to my left,
Jesus would be standing right next to me.

332
00:26:41,159 –> 00:26:47,010
Like just standing there physically, not
a spirit, not an abarition, just Him there

333
00:26:47,010 –> 00:26:50,520
ready to hold me and hug me and love me.

334
00:26:50,969 –> 00:26:58,260
And it immediately terrified me
and I ran, like it went from that

335
00:26:58,260 –> 00:27:03,929
warmth, gorgeous, beautiful feeling
within a nanosecond to terror,

336
00:27:04,800 –> 00:27:07,320
and I ran back into the party.

337
00:27:08,340 –> 00:27:16,260
And the next, I wanna say it was about
six or seven years were a living hell.

338
00:27:16,830 –> 00:27:21,719
Uh, before that was
shitty, let’s say, okay.

339
00:27:22,290 –> 00:27:31,635
Um, this was the separation
from God in that time and I get

340
00:27:31,635 –> 00:27:33,495
emotional when I think about this.

341
00:27:36,135 –> 00:27:44,395
Um, it was so much a desert, I, I
don’t know how else to describe it.

342
00:27:44,395 –> 00:27:49,215
It was so empty and my life was so

343
00:27:52,425 –> 00:27:58,095
lonely and isolated and,
um, it was horrible.

344
00:27:58,095 –> 00:28:05,415
I was suicidal, I was, um, in fact,
at one point during that, a very close

345
00:28:05,415 –> 00:28:08,565
friend convinced me to go get a cat.

346
00:28:09,045 –> 00:28:13,920
She’s like, I need to take you to
get a, to adopt a cat, you need

347
00:28:13,920 –> 00:28:15,660
to have an animal in your house.

348
00:28:16,320 –> 00:28:19,560
You know, like she, she didn’t
know what else to do, you know?

349
00:28:20,100 –> 00:28:26,910
And we went, and this pathetic cat, uh,
she was just this pathetic little kitten,

350
00:28:26,910 –> 00:28:29,525
she had been thrown out of a car.

351
00:28:29,915 –> 00:28:35,255
And she had, like, she still, she was,
she was so fresh into the, um, humane

352
00:28:35,255 –> 00:28:40,655
society that she still had like little
oil and grease spots on her from having

353
00:28:40,655 –> 00:28:47,105
been, you know, thrown on the highway
and miraculously saved by some samaritan

354
00:28:47,105 –> 00:28:49,295
who brought her into the Humane Society.

355
00:28:49,895 –> 00:28:52,145
And she ended up, I just took her home.

356
00:28:52,145 –> 00:28:54,395
I was like, That’s it,
that’s the one, I want her.

357
00:28:54,815 –> 00:28:58,955
And I remember the first night
thinking to myself, What did I do?

358
00:28:58,955 –> 00:29:00,605
I can’t take care of this animal.

359
00:29:00,815 –> 00:29:04,775
You know, ’cause you know how kittens are,
she’s just nonstop screaming, you know?

360
00:29:05,585 –> 00:29:09,365
And that was the only time I ever
thought I can’t take care of her.

361
00:29:09,365 –> 00:29:14,345
We, I, I mean, I, she
became the reason I lived.

362
00:29:15,335 –> 00:29:17,525
She literally became the reason I lived.

363
00:29:18,095 –> 00:29:26,685
And it was, it was, uh, in fact, there
was one moment, when she was probably

364
00:29:26,685 –> 00:29:30,794
about three or four years old, when
I was seriously considering, you

365
00:29:30,794 –> 00:29:32,175
know, like, How am I gonna do this?

366
00:29:32,175 –> 00:29:36,615
‘Cause at that point I was
significantly overweight, the food

367
00:29:36,615 –> 00:29:41,355
had turned on me during this time,
and I couldn’t stop eating it.

368
00:29:41,385 –> 00:29:44,655
But it wasn’t doing
anything for me anymore.

369
00:29:44,655 –> 00:29:48,855
Like I, I, I wanted to
stop and I couldn’t.

370
00:29:49,469 –> 00:29:53,054
I, I, I, it, it’s so hard
to describe that to people.

371
00:29:53,564 –> 00:29:59,774
Um, but I, in fact, I’ve, I’ve shared this
with my husband who’s also in recovery,

372
00:29:59,804 –> 00:30:04,544
and it, he, it, it baffles him because
he’s in recovery for alcohol addiction.

373
00:30:05,205 –> 00:30:08,534
And when he eats and he gets full,
he’s, you know, he’s just like,

374
00:30:08,534 –> 00:30:11,745
I don’t understand how you could
keep eating if you were full.

375
00:30:11,745 –> 00:30:14,385
And I’m like, I don’t know
how to explain it to you.

376
00:30:15,014 –> 00:30:19,935
I, there were nights when I
couldn’t lay down in bed ’cause I

377
00:30:19,935 –> 00:30:21,735
was afraid I was going to choke.

378
00:30:22,275 –> 00:30:27,105
That’s how much I had eaten and it, and
there, it was not digesting fast enough.

379
00:30:27,825 –> 00:30:30,585
And, um, so I mean, it was bad.

380
00:30:30,585 –> 00:30:34,245
And I was close to 300
pounds, I’m only five four.

381
00:30:34,815 –> 00:30:39,465
And I just, I was thinking,
How can I kill myself?

382
00:30:39,795 –> 00:30:42,195
Like I was looking around my
apartment thinking, How can I

383
00:30:42,195 –> 00:30:45,945
kill myself so that it’s not a
burden for them to carry me out?

384
00:30:46,185 –> 00:30:47,655
Like, How can I do this?

385
00:30:48,165 –> 00:30:49,395
You know, who were them?

386
00:30:49,395 –> 00:30:50,715
I don’t even know who I was.

387
00:30:50,745 –> 00:30:52,155
You know, the firemen, I guess.

388
00:30:53,175 –> 00:30:56,835
But these are the thoughts that were
going through my head and I’m having

389
00:30:56,835 –> 00:31:02,685
this little inner dialogue in my head
and, please don’t think I’m crazy, but

390
00:31:02,685 –> 00:31:07,345
I swear my cat walked into the room
and she stood up on her back legs.

391
00:31:07,365 –> 00:31:10,335
She didn’t really, but this is
what, this is what I remember.

392
00:31:10,335 –> 00:31:14,625
She stood up on her back legs and put
her front legs on her hips and was just

393
00:31:14,625 –> 00:31:16,995
like, Well, what about me if you do this?

394
00:31:16,995 –> 00:31:22,545
You know, like that was, she
communicated to me, I need you.

395
00:31:25,215 –> 00:31:27,555
And that was it, I never
thought about it again.

396
00:31:28,065 –> 00:31:33,015
It was probably six months to a year
after that that I got into recovery.

397
00:31:33,735 –> 00:31:37,935
Um, but during that time, uh,
and I got into recovery ’cause a

398
00:31:37,935 –> 00:31:40,695
counselor I was seeing suggested it.

399
00:31:40,695 –> 00:31:44,865
And, and she, she said, You
know, I wanna be able to help you

400
00:31:44,865 –> 00:31:49,665
but all these issues with your life,
none of it is gonna take hold no

401
00:31:49,665 –> 00:31:53,235
matter what work we do until you
get these addictions under control.

402
00:31:54,675 –> 00:31:58,695
And because I, I complained
all the time about the fact

403
00:31:58,695 –> 00:31:59,715
that I couldn’t stop eating.

404
00:32:00,750 –> 00:32:06,840
And she sent me to recovery and I knew
from the moment I walked in that door,

405
00:32:07,260 –> 00:32:12,389
and I talk about this in the book,
in hindsight, I know that Jesus knew

406
00:32:12,389 –> 00:32:17,489
I couldn’t look directly at him so
he spoke to me through these women.

407
00:32:18,449 –> 00:32:22,260
Because that night, I remember
there were three women at that

408
00:32:22,260 –> 00:32:25,260
meeting that I remember so clearly.

409
00:32:25,590 –> 00:32:29,760
And the more I remember, you know, the
further away I get from it, the more

410
00:32:29,760 –> 00:32:36,270
clarity I have on that first meeting
that it was, Jesus was using them.

411
00:32:36,270 –> 00:32:40,354
I’m getting chills telling you this,
like He was literally using those people.

412
00:32:40,354 –> 00:32:44,459
Whether they believed in Him
or not, doesn’t matter, He

413
00:32:44,459 –> 00:32:47,250
was using them to talk to me.

414
00:32:47,699 –> 00:32:52,770
Because the things that they
said were exactly what I needed.

415
00:32:52,770 –> 00:32:57,660
The first one, I walked in the room and
it was before the meeting started, and she

416
00:32:58,020 –> 00:33:02,280
was sitting in a group of women and they
were all together laughing and everything.

417
00:33:02,280 –> 00:33:04,920
So of course I went and sat
on the other end of the table

418
00:33:04,950 –> 00:33:08,490
’cause, you know, I’m not, nobody
likes me, so I’ll sit over here.

419
00:33:08,490 –> 00:33:10,860
You know, I had all
these ideas in my head.

420
00:33:11,220 –> 00:33:17,340
Well, she was just this thin, pretty young
woman, and she got up from the group, left

421
00:33:17,340 –> 00:33:20,820
the group while they were still laughing,
and came over and sat next to me and

422
00:33:20,820 –> 00:33:23,130
talked to me until the meeting started

423
00:33:24,330 –> 00:33:25,680
like I was important.

424
00:33:26,520 –> 00:33:31,680
And I was just flabbergasted
that this pretty person wanted

425
00:33:31,680 –> 00:33:33,180
to talk to me, you know?

426
00:33:33,660 –> 00:33:38,850
And then the woman who shared
her story that night, she sent

427
00:33:38,850 –> 00:33:40,439
her pictures around the room.

428
00:33:40,620 –> 00:33:44,159
‘Cause she’s this tall, skinny,
blonde woman and here I am, this fat,

429
00:33:44,159 –> 00:33:46,919
dumpy, dark haired girl, you know?

430
00:33:47,280 –> 00:33:51,960
And, and, and I was just thinking she
was saying all the right things, but I

431
00:33:51,960 –> 00:33:57,480
was thinking someone must have given her
a script because she was never like me.

432
00:33:57,990 –> 00:34:02,610
And I got this little photo album of
pictures of her as she was telling her

433
00:34:02,610 –> 00:34:09,239
story and she was exactly like me, all
these pictures of her obese and with

434
00:34:09,239 –> 00:34:11,670
that dead look in her eyes that I felt.

435
00:34:12,630 –> 00:34:18,270
And then as I was leaving the
meeting, this woman who I ended

436
00:34:18,270 –> 00:34:23,310
up calling crazy Jean over time,
she was, uh, she’s in heaven now

437
00:34:23,310 –> 00:34:29,324
so she doesn’t care that I said her
name out loud, but she, um, she killed

438
00:34:29,324 –> 00:34:31,544
herself getting across the room to me.

439
00:34:32,205 –> 00:34:36,585
And she, I don’t remember a lot
of what she said other than she

440
00:34:36,585 –> 00:34:38,504
showed me her pictures also.

441
00:34:38,504 –> 00:34:41,895
She said, I wanted to show you I’ve
always carried my pictures with

442
00:34:41,895 –> 00:34:45,674
me too ’cause it’s hard to believe
that everybody sitting in here who’s

443
00:34:45,674 –> 00:34:49,304
in skinny bodies actually was once
like you and you need to see it.

444
00:34:49,754 –> 00:34:55,154
And, and so she showed me a couple of her
pictures and then she said, um, as I was

445
00:34:55,154 –> 00:34:59,055
trying to get away from her, ’cause as
much as I knew I was in the right place, I

446
00:34:59,055 –> 00:35:01,125
also wanted to get the hell out of there.

447
00:35:01,605 –> 00:35:03,944
I was like, I can’t, this is way too much.

448
00:35:03,975 –> 00:35:04,935
I can’t handle this.

449
00:35:05,355 –> 00:35:10,904
And, and she, as I was walking
away, she called my name and, which

450
00:35:11,625 –> 00:35:15,044
shocked me because I had only said
my name way back at the beginning

451
00:35:15,044 –> 00:35:17,955
of the meeting when they asked if
it, it was anybody’s first meeting.

452
00:35:18,524 –> 00:35:23,384
And so I turned around and she looked
dead in my eyes and I know this was

453
00:35:23,384 –> 00:35:27,495
Jesus looking right in my eyes and
she said, Jessica, please come back.

454
00:35:28,335 –> 00:35:30,345
I really, really want you to come back.

455
00:35:33,615 –> 00:35:34,544
I never left.

456
00:35:34,544 –> 00:35:39,015
I never left the program no matter
what was happening, no matter how

457
00:35:39,884 –> 00:35:44,265
angry I was, no matter how much the
people annoyed me, because it’s,

458
00:35:44,294 –> 00:35:45,794
it’s kind of like church, you know?

459
00:35:45,794 –> 00:35:48,435
There’s always somebody that’s
gonna be annoying, you know?

460
00:35:48,435 –> 00:35:50,685
It doesn’t matter, you know?

461
00:35:50,685 –> 00:35:56,415
And, but I just kept going back there
and getting exactly what I needed.

462
00:35:56,805 –> 00:36:01,245
Nobody made me be religious, you know?

463
00:36:01,245 –> 00:36:04,845
All they said to me was, and that’s
why I named the book Higher Powered,

464
00:36:05,205 –> 00:36:08,595
all they said was, You gotta have
a power that’s greater than you.

465
00:36:08,625 –> 00:36:14,265
We don’t care if it’s the God of your
childhood, we don’t care who it is, you

466
00:36:14,265 –> 00:36:16,365
know, just don’t make it another person.

467
00:36:16,815 –> 00:36:22,095
You know, if it’s the, but for a
long time, whenever I would hear the

468
00:36:22,125 –> 00:36:28,125
word God, I would think good, orderly
direction because that’s what I was

469
00:36:28,125 –> 00:36:30,465
getting from this community of people.

470
00:36:30,975 –> 00:36:35,205
I was getting good orderly
direction and that was my higher

471
00:36:35,205 –> 00:36:37,515
power for a really long time.

472
00:36:38,445 –> 00:36:42,045
You know, until I was able to
once again, look Jesus in the

473
00:36:42,045 –> 00:36:45,015
face and say, You’re it man.

474
00:36:46,185 –> 00:36:48,975
You know, you’re, you’re
my numero uno guy.

475
00:36:48,975 –> 00:36:53,715
But it took me a while ’cause I
was still, I had so much shame.

476
00:36:54,075 –> 00:36:59,955
I had so much shame for the things I
had done in my active addiction and, and

477
00:37:00,404 –> 00:37:02,715
just the horrible thoughts that I had.

478
00:37:02,715 –> 00:37:08,445
And I mean, I could go on and on
forever, but that’s when, yeah,

479
00:37:08,445 –> 00:37:09,884
that’s when it turned for me.

480
00:37:11,055 –> 00:37:11,415
Yeah.

481
00:37:11,895 –> 00:37:12,375
Yeah.

482
00:37:12,404 –> 00:37:16,995
You know, it’s, it’s a lot to
unpack, but it’s, it’s very

483
00:37:16,995 –> 00:37:19,424
important what you outlined there.

484
00:37:20,654 –> 00:37:25,395
Addicts are addicts, it doesn’t matter
if it’s food, or booze, or whatever.

485
00:37:25,395 –> 00:37:28,830
It’s up here inside our head.

486
00:37:29,190 –> 00:37:34,890
And once we realize, oh, I control that.

487
00:37:36,330 –> 00:37:43,410
That’s, that’s really something that a lot
of us need to remember, we control that.

488
00:37:44,340 –> 00:37:52,650
And I used to be ashamed of my past life
too, because I did some horrendous things.

489
00:37:52,650 –> 00:37:56,460
I mean, I, I danced about
doing horrendous things.

490
00:37:57,150 –> 00:38:05,430
But now that I, I’m about to turn sixty,
uh, and I look back on that and I’m

491
00:38:05,430 –> 00:38:09,090
happy and pleased that I lived that life.

492
00:38:09,090 –> 00:38:12,270
And I heard you say the very same thing.

493
00:38:12,450 –> 00:38:19,080
It gave me substance and that rubble
that God broke when He wanted to,

494
00:38:19,110 –> 00:38:21,505
He waited until I was ready for it

495
00:38:22,545 –> 00:38:25,875
because He doesn’t give
us what we can’t handle.

496
00:38:26,415 –> 00:38:34,095
And, and that shows us, after we
come through that storm, wow, I

497
00:38:34,095 –> 00:38:37,875
did that and I can do more now.

498
00:38:38,235 –> 00:38:44,265
And it gives us that bump that
we need and it gets us through.

499
00:38:44,595 –> 00:38:50,295
So it’s really important that
we recognize people, places, and

500
00:38:50,295 –> 00:38:55,185
things in our lives because they’re
important and we control that.

501
00:38:55,875 –> 00:39:02,475
We have to set boundaries on each
of those things because life is

502
00:39:02,475 –> 00:39:07,154
about enjoying what’s around us.

503
00:39:07,395 –> 00:39:12,105
And if we’re putting those bad
negative things around us, that’s

504
00:39:12,105 –> 00:39:13,965
what we’re going to experience.

505
00:39:14,415 –> 00:39:22,815
And after we wake up and we finally figure
out what we have to offer society, we

506
00:39:22,815 –> 00:39:26,595
tend to shed that shame a lot easier.

507
00:39:26,865 –> 00:39:32,055
Because believe me, I still mess up
and I get that shame and guilt because

508
00:39:32,055 –> 00:39:35,505
it keeps us on track and it’s okay.

509
00:39:35,925 –> 00:39:44,685
So Lois Hollis, one of the gals that
I have interviewed in the past, she

510
00:39:44,685 –> 00:39:51,825
talks about shame and guilt and being
able to name it and, uh, own up to

511
00:39:51,825 –> 00:39:59,745
it and not let it control you, but
you be okay with them being in your

512
00:39:59,745 –> 00:40:02,355
life because they’re part of you.

513
00:40:02,895 –> 00:40:07,575
And I think it’s really
important that people get that.

514
00:40:08,805 –> 00:40:09,225
Yeah.

515
00:40:09,795 –> 00:40:15,105
And, you know, the, um, the, you know,
I talked about Jesus of Nazareth and

516
00:40:15,105 –> 00:40:19,125
how important that was to me growing
up, you know, that mini series.

517
00:40:19,125 –> 00:40:23,234
And then, and I, and I would
escape into movies a lot, that

518
00:40:23,234 –> 00:40:26,145
was one of my other outlets, you
know, I just escaped into movies.

519
00:40:26,145 –> 00:40:30,464
But, you know, I was thinking about when
you were saying the shame thing, um, I

520
00:40:30,464 –> 00:40:34,665
don’t know if you’ve ever seen the movie
Passion of the Christ that Mel Gibson did,

521
00:40:35,145 –> 00:40:39,045
Um, it’s a very difficult movie to watch.

522
00:40:39,075 –> 00:40:40,605
It’s beautifully done.

523
00:40:41,174 –> 00:40:49,995
Um, but there’s a scene in it, and
this, this movie came out in 2004 and

524
00:40:49,995 –> 00:40:56,174
I was just finishing up that work I was
talking about with that therapist, you

525
00:40:56,174 –> 00:41:01,845
know, where I had, um, uncovered most
of my childhood trauma stuff and done

526
00:41:01,845 –> 00:41:04,785
the work on that to move beyond it,

527
00:41:05,325 –> 00:41:10,665
and I went to see this movie in the
theater and there’s this scene in the

528
00:41:10,665 –> 00:41:19,305
movie where Jesus or, um, the, the,
uh, woman who Jesus saves from being

529
00:41:19,305 –> 00:41:28,215
stoned, um, she has a, she, she’s
watching Him be beat during His beating

530
00:41:28,215 –> 00:41:33,555
prior to the crucifixion, and she
sees the blood and she gets down to

531
00:41:33,615 –> 00:41:38,895
try to mop the blood up and she’s on
the ground and she has a flashback to

532
00:41:38,895 –> 00:41:41,175
when He saved her from being stoned.

533
00:41:41,685 –> 00:41:46,634
And the way they film that scene,
it’s all from her point of view.

534
00:41:47,235 –> 00:41:53,235
And so you’re seeing all these rocks
drop down and these stones drop down

535
00:41:53,235 –> 00:41:59,095
and then these men sort of back away
from her and she reaches for His foot.

536
00:41:59,555 –> 00:42:03,705
And then she looks up and, and He’s,
His face is there and the sun is

537
00:42:03,705 –> 00:42:06,405
like right behind His, His head.

538
00:42:06,405 –> 00:42:11,835
And it’s just like this bright,
beautiful vision and then you see His

539
00:42:11,835 –> 00:42:15,105
hand come down and, and pick her up.

540
00:42:15,945 –> 00:42:22,425
And I will never forget, I, I, I, I wish
there was a way, I tried to write to

541
00:42:22,425 –> 00:42:27,675
Mel Gibson and the letter actually ended
up coming back to me as undeliverable.

542
00:42:27,975 –> 00:42:32,565
I, I was like, How do I get in touch
with this man to tell him that if you

543
00:42:32,565 –> 00:42:38,775
don’t ever do anything ever again for
the rest of your life, what you did

544
00:42:38,775 –> 00:42:46,155
in that scene, and at the time that I
saw it in my life, brought me back to

545
00:42:46,155 –> 00:42:53,205
Jesus because I, because I had left
the shame on that therapist floor.

546
00:42:54,270 –> 00:42:59,700
And when I saw Jesus picking her
up, I was feeling Him pick me up.

547
00:42:59,940 –> 00:43:05,160
Like, it was like He knew now I could look
at Him now, I could look directly at Him.

548
00:43:06,060 –> 00:43:13,260
And that’s when things really started
to change for me and I was able to, I,

549
00:43:13,350 –> 00:43:18,540
I at, during that same time I met, um,
there was a new chaplain where I worked,

550
00:43:18,660 –> 00:43:23,910
he just started that year and he was
the first, it took a little while,

551
00:43:23,910 –> 00:43:28,680
but he was the first, what I call
man of the cloth in my whole life.

552
00:43:29,010 –> 00:43:33,150
I was like thirty-four years old at
that point that I was able to sit down

553
00:43:33,150 –> 00:43:39,030
with and really talk about God and
Jesus and be vulnerable and trust him.

554
00:43:39,420 –> 00:43:45,450
And he became my, it was like God gave
me the therapist and then when that

555
00:43:45,450 –> 00:43:50,759
work was done, He gave me this chaplain
who just, he was the one who encouraged

556
00:43:50,759 –> 00:43:55,770
me to go to seminary, he, he was like
the dad that I never had, you know?

557
00:43:55,770 –> 00:44:00,180
And, and it was just, God has just
consistently done that for me.

558
00:44:00,180 –> 00:44:08,210
Like, He’s just put people in my life
that I just feel so blessed that I would

559
00:44:08,210 –> 00:44:15,690
never change anything that happened to
me because I, I don’t wanna do it again,

560
00:44:16,100 –> 00:44:19,440
I don’t have to go back there, you know?

561
00:44:19,440 –> 00:44:25,859
But I wouldn’t change it because it,
it, all of it drew me to Him, you

562
00:44:25,859 –> 00:44:31,200
know, all of it drew me closer to God
and it made me seek harder and, and,

563
00:44:31,290 –> 00:44:38,280
and, um, uh, maybe appreciate more the
people in my life and, yeah, all that.

564
00:44:38,340 –> 00:44:43,380
I mean, it’s just, I could go on and
on for hours, so I’ll stop there.

565
00:44:45,070 –> 00:44:45,290
Yeah.

566
00:44:45,670 –> 00:44:54,630
Well, you know, Jessica, the, the big
thing there is sometimes we think we love

567
00:44:54,690 –> 00:44:58,080
people and we don’t even know how to love.

568
00:44:58,590 –> 00:45:07,710
And when we accept Christ, it opens us
up to understanding what true love is.

569
00:45:07,950 –> 00:45:17,730
And if we really look at the story
of Christ Himself, it will change

570
00:45:17,730 –> 00:45:20,850
you if you accept the story.

571
00:45:21,420 –> 00:45:25,500
And, and that’s your obligation,
it, it’s your choice.

572
00:45:25,830 –> 00:45:33,760
And He’s not pressuring anyone to
accept, He just wants you to be aware.

573
00:45:34,670 –> 00:45:41,820
And, and anyone that cannot
see what that offers you, it,

574
00:45:41,825 –> 00:45:45,210
it, you have some growth to do.

575
00:45:45,660 –> 00:45:52,860
And I never discourage and I never
say they’re bad people, it’s, it’s

576
00:45:52,860 –> 00:45:55,920
not the people, it’s what they do.

577
00:45:57,060 –> 00:45:57,570
Well, right.

578
00:45:57,570 –> 00:46:02,400
And it’s, it takes what it takes to, to,
you know, like for me, for a long time

579
00:46:02,400 –> 00:46:06,900
I couldn’t accept it for a long time
because of what I had come from, you know?

580
00:46:06,900 –> 00:46:11,640
And so it, like you, I loved how you
described it when you were talking

581
00:46:11,640 –> 00:46:18,060
about the footprints, you know, even in
those darkest times, Jesus is with us.

582
00:46:18,060 –> 00:46:24,985
You know, He showed up outside that
party for me probably, I’m, I’m

583
00:46:24,990 –> 00:46:29,130
guessing He knew I was gonna run
away because He knows everything.

584
00:46:29,850 –> 00:46:35,250
But He showed up there anyway because
He wanted me to know I’m right here

585
00:46:35,760 –> 00:46:37,950
when you’re ready, I’m right here.

586
00:46:38,820 –> 00:46:43,410
You know, and that’s the, that’s the
beautiful thing that I think people miss.

587
00:46:43,800 –> 00:46:50,310
It’s not about what I’m gonna do today to
get Jesus to love me, He already loves me.

588
00:46:50,760 –> 00:46:55,140
I can’t, there’s nothing I
can do that’s gonna get Him to

589
00:46:55,140 –> 00:46:56,880
love me, it’s not about that.

590
00:46:56,880 –> 00:47:02,970
It’s about getting rid of all this crap
that’s in between me and Jesus, you know?

591
00:47:02,970 –> 00:47:04,920
Because that’s what it is, it’s all crap.

592
00:47:04,920 –> 00:47:05,430
All of it.

593
00:47:06,150 –> 00:47:06,450
Yep.

594
00:47:06,960 –> 00:47:14,670
And, and, you know, to add to it, some
of the last words that Christ said while

595
00:47:14,670 –> 00:47:22,259
He was on the Earth is, Forgive them
Father, for they know not what they do.

596
00:47:22,830 –> 00:47:28,050
And I always look to the cross at that
moment in time when I’m dealing with

597
00:47:28,110 –> 00:47:35,670
difficult people, places, and things and
it humbles me and it lets me remember.

598
00:47:36,030 –> 00:47:42,540
And, and I love how you described the
scene in the Passion of the Christ, where

599
00:47:42,810 –> 00:47:50,009
the focal point was the woman and watching
all the stones drop, chills, you know?

600
00:47:50,009 –> 00:47:57,810
It, it is how you perceive things and
the people you choose to put around you.

601
00:47:57,960 –> 00:48:06,630
And sometimes you have no control and
that’s the times He’s got you, man.

602
00:48:07,020 –> 00:48:11,820
And you will get through it, just
wait for the better times on the

603
00:48:11,820 –> 00:48:17,670
other side and that will give you
fuel to get through to the next one.

604
00:48:18,510 –> 00:48:22,920
Uh, and yes, we could speak
for hours about things.

605
00:48:22,920 –> 00:48:26,430
I barely scratched the
surface with you, Jessica.

606
00:48:26,910 –> 00:48:34,230
Uh, the main thing, you, you said it
earlier, when you had the dead look in

607
00:48:34,230 –> 00:48:41,950
your eyes, and that’s what this podcast
is about, Dead America, that dead feeling

608
00:48:41,970 –> 00:48:47,040
inside, we all can feel great again.

609
00:48:47,220 –> 00:48:52,770
We can all feel the love
that we have waiting for us,

610
00:48:53,610 –> 00:48:56,370
and it’s all just a choice.

611
00:48:57,450 –> 00:49:04,005
Is there anything, Is there anything
you’d like to add to our conversation?

612
00:49:05,655 –> 00:49:07,755
Yeah, and that’s the,
that’s the other thing.

613
00:49:07,755 –> 00:49:11,775
I’m glad you brought that up because
one of the things that attracted me to

614
00:49:11,775 –> 00:49:16,665
your podcast was the title of it, which
is hilarious because, you know, um,

615
00:49:16,905 –> 00:49:19,125
it, it kind of catches you off guard.

616
00:49:20,175 –> 00:49:20,445
Yeah.

617
00:49:21,165 –> 00:49:28,845
But, you know, my, my thesis
idea came because I spent so much

618
00:49:28,845 –> 00:49:31,365
time in my life being terrified.

619
00:49:31,605 –> 00:49:36,795
And even in that, in that moment when
Jesus came to me, His love scared

620
00:49:36,800 –> 00:49:39,705
me so much, um, that I ran away.

621
00:49:39,705 –> 00:49:44,175
You know, I was so afraid, you know,
when the end of the world happened,

622
00:49:44,685 –> 00:49:48,795
I was going to be burning in the
flames with the sinners, you know?

623
00:49:48,795 –> 00:49:52,305
And, and all those things
that, you know, there were

624
00:49:52,710 –> 00:49:56,430
really scary movies about the devil
when I was growing up, like The

625
00:49:56,430 –> 00:50:01,530
Exorcist and the Omen and, you know,
those, those things that said we’re all

626
00:50:01,530 –> 00:50:03,390
gonna die and it’s gonna be horrible.

627
00:50:03,390 –> 00:50:07,140
You know, the, just apocalyptic fear.

628
00:50:07,590 –> 00:50:12,810
And I remember sitting in seminary
and, and thinking, you know, we’re

629
00:50:12,810 –> 00:50:18,120
learning all about how Jesus was so
metaphorical in how He spoke and how

630
00:50:18,120 –> 00:50:22,680
He shared parables and everything
was symbolic and He wanted people to

631
00:50:22,680 –> 00:50:25,500
dig deeper into what He was saying.

632
00:50:25,920 –> 00:50:30,060
And I thought to myself, Well, maybe
when He was talking about His second

633
00:50:30,060 –> 00:50:32,610
coming, maybe that was metaphorical.

634
00:50:33,150 –> 00:50:37,440
And that’s when I started to come
up with this idea of personal, a

635
00:50:37,440 –> 00:50:41,460
personal death, a personal end times.

636
00:50:41,460 –> 00:50:44,700
The word eschatology is in the
subtitle of my book, and that

637
00:50:44,700 –> 00:50:49,500
means the end of time, the end of
things, the study of the end times.

638
00:50:51,465 –> 00:50:56,985
I, because when I was in, when I was
in seminary, I had been, I, I think

639
00:50:56,985 –> 00:51:00,765
I was about fourteen, fifteen years
in recovery when I started seminary

640
00:51:01,185 –> 00:51:03,705
so I, I was a completely new person.

641
00:51:04,125 –> 00:51:06,465
Like I, I was, talk about born again.

642
00:51:06,465 –> 00:51:10,400
I mean, that person who showed up at
that first meeting while she’s still

643
00:51:10,605 –> 00:51:14,355
in here and all I have to do is throw a
cookie down my throat and I’ll find her

644
00:51:14,355 –> 00:51:18,165
again, I’m sure, you know, I don’t wanna,
I don’t want any part of that, right?

645
00:51:18,165 –> 00:51:21,315
But, um, she’s still there.

646
00:51:21,525 –> 00:51:28,875
But I had to die to so much of myself
in order to truly live, like what

647
00:51:28,875 –> 00:51:36,015
you’re talking about, like to, to truly
live the life I was created to live.

648
00:51:36,675 –> 00:51:42,655
The things about me that were
killing me had to be killed.

649
00:51:43,695 –> 00:51:47,250
You know, because they were, I
was kind of absorbing myself.

650
00:51:47,760 –> 00:51:49,410
I was so self-absorbed that

651
00:51:49,700 –> 00:51:52,020
I just kind of kept like feeding off of

652
00:51:52,020 –> 00:51:52,650
myself.

653
00:51:52,650 –> 00:51:57,030
And I was, it was, it was, like I
said, it was a walking, living hell.

654
00:51:57,480 –> 00:52:00,660
And so that’s what I would add
to it that, you know, and it’s,

655
00:52:00,690 –> 00:52:06,000
it’s an, it’s a, um, for me it’s
an ongoing process of awakening.

656
00:52:06,360 –> 00:52:11,430
Like it’s, because what’ll happen is I’ll
die to something like, let’s say I die

657
00:52:11,430 –> 00:52:13,500
to the, the food and the alcohol, right?

658
00:52:13,500 –> 00:52:17,160
And I go, Okay, I’m gonna put that
down, not gonna be a part of my life.

659
00:52:17,490 –> 00:52:21,870
And then this self-centered victimhood
comes up and I have to die to that.

660
00:52:21,870 –> 00:52:25,050
And then I, you know, and then
I, and then I recognized, wow,

661
00:52:25,050 –> 00:52:26,610
I judged the crap out of people.

662
00:52:26,610 –> 00:52:32,880
Okay, now I gotta let, and all these
things, I can die to them because

663
00:52:32,880 –> 00:52:37,740
I have this relationship with Jesus
Christ that, you know, I go to Him

664
00:52:37,740 –> 00:52:39,660
and I go, Could you help me with this?

665
00:52:39,660 –> 00:52:43,800
Because me trying to do
it, I just keep messing up.

666
00:52:45,450 –> 00:52:48,240
You know, and I’m gonna need
you to take this from me.

667
00:52:48,690 –> 00:52:53,220
The way He lifted me up off the ground,
He needs to also take this from me.

668
00:52:53,400 –> 00:52:56,970
I have to show up and do the
work, but He’s going to, He’s

669
00:52:56,975 –> 00:52:58,170
gonna do the heavy lifting.

670
00:52:59,670 –> 00:53:00,705
So yeah, that’s what I would add.

671
00:53:04,475 –> 00:53:12,060
The, the, the big key is people are
always watching and they’re watching

672
00:53:12,060 –> 00:53:14,610
for something better than themselves.

673
00:53:14,700 –> 00:53:21,660
So don’t display something that is
contrary to what Christ would have

674
00:53:21,660 –> 00:53:24,840
you display and that’s hard to do.

675
00:53:24,840 –> 00:53:29,160
And sometimes you’re gonna be
caught off guard doing those things.

676
00:53:30,540 –> 00:53:37,920
It’s the prodigal son thing, they, they
will rejoice in heaven when you return

677
00:53:37,920 –> 00:53:42,990
from those ways but you’re always welcome.

678
00:53:43,050 –> 00:53:49,410
And that’s the thing, judging other
people for where they are in this journey,

679
00:53:50,100 –> 00:53:53,550
it will never bring them to the path.

680
00:53:54,120 –> 00:54:00,810
And once we strip away, I like how
you say it’s basically being born

681
00:54:00,810 –> 00:54:07,290
again when you strip away all that
judgment, that hate, that diluted

682
00:54:07,290 –> 00:54:10,770
thought that we allow into ourselves.

683
00:54:11,040 –> 00:54:16,080
That’s when we find the glory
of God and I, I love it.

684
00:54:17,490 –> 00:54:23,970
Jessica, could you tell people about your
books, how to get ahold of you, and all

685
00:54:23,970 –> 00:54:27,180
of, the call to action for our listeners?

686
00:54:28,425 –> 00:54:29,085
Yeah.

687
00:54:29,145 –> 00:54:33,345
Uh, everything you need to know about
me or how to contact me, you can find

688
00:54:33,345 –> 00:54:36,775
via my website, it’s jessicalmorris.com.

689
00:54:36,795 –> 00:54:39,885
Very easy to find, it’s just
my name with my middle initial.

690
00:54:40,455 –> 00:54:45,285
Um, and my books are on there,
information about spiritual direction

691
00:54:45,285 –> 00:54:51,225
is there, um, my blog is there, which
has a lot of my poetry on it, I mean,

692
00:54:51,225 –> 00:54:53,085
everything you wanna know, it’s there.

693
00:54:53,085 –> 00:54:57,495
There’s even a couple of, um, videos
from different podcasts I’ve been

694
00:54:57,495 –> 00:55:02,895
on, um, and some of my own lectures
and, uh, speaking, and, you know,

695
00:55:02,895 –> 00:55:04,815
things like, all kinds of stuff there.

696
00:55:05,235 –> 00:55:06,885
Um, so yeah.

697
00:55:06,885 –> 00:55:13,560
I mean, my call to action every day
is, you know, God, what, what can I

698
00:55:13,560 –> 00:55:15,510
do today that will bring glory to you?

699
00:55:16,080 –> 00:55:21,779
You know, ’cause for a long time,
you know, it was about what can I do

700
00:55:22,170 –> 00:55:26,790
to, um, further my writing career?

701
00:55:26,790 –> 00:55:31,319
You know, God show me how to get my,
get people to buy my book, show me how

702
00:55:31,350 –> 00:55:35,370
to get published, show me how to make
more money so I can help, you know,

703
00:55:35,370 –> 00:55:39,690
with the household finances, you know,
all these things I was praying for.

704
00:55:39,690 –> 00:55:42,779
And now I just get on my knees
and I’m like, God, what can

705
00:55:42,779 –> 00:55:44,160
bring glory to you today?

706
00:55:44,730 –> 00:55:46,290
Put it in front of me today.

707
00:55:46,740 –> 00:55:49,890
And, and, you know, sometimes
I fall flat on my face.

708
00:55:50,549 –> 00:55:54,660
Other times I, you know, I go
to bed at night and go, Wow,

709
00:55:54,660 –> 00:55:57,180
God, you really used me today.

710
00:55:57,180 –> 00:55:58,350
You know, that was awesome.

711
00:55:58,649 –> 00:56:03,839
I mean, heck, last week I did Vacation
Bible school at my church, and I don’t

712
00:56:03,839 –> 00:56:06,299
even really like kids that much, you know?

713
00:56:06,299 –> 00:56:11,700
But, but I mean, I, they asked
me to do it and I was like, I

714
00:56:11,700 –> 00:56:13,169
was like, All right, whatever.

715
00:56:13,169 –> 00:56:17,220
And, you know, I gotta tell you,
it was, well, I like, yeah, I’m

716
00:56:17,220 –> 00:56:19,080
much more suited for adults.

717
00:56:19,470 –> 00:56:25,109
Um, you know, it, it really was
eye-opening for me, um, to be present

718
00:56:25,109 –> 00:56:29,730
with those kids for a week and, and
to do that and to meet some other

719
00:56:29,730 –> 00:56:32,850
people in the church that I wouldn’t
have met otherwise, you know?

720
00:56:32,850 –> 00:56:37,859
And so you never know what might happen
when you say yes to something that

721
00:56:37,859 –> 00:56:43,109
before you would’ve, you know, there’s
this great line in one of my recovery

722
00:56:43,109 –> 00:56:47,730
programs where they say, Be careful
of contempt prior to investigation.

723
00:56:49,185 –> 00:56:54,735
And for me, I need to think about
that a lot because there’s a lot

724
00:56:54,735 –> 00:56:58,125
of things in my life that I’m like,
Oh, no, no, I, I don’t do that.

725
00:56:58,125 –> 00:56:59,715
Well, did I ever try it?

726
00:57:00,795 –> 00:57:02,295
Did I ever research it?

727
00:57:03,195 –> 00:57:07,470
You know, I’m, I, I wanna let
go of that closed-mindedness.

728
00:57:07,470 –> 00:57:12,585
And so I don’t know about Vacation
Bible school again, because I have

729
00:57:12,585 –> 00:57:14,355
tried it once, but you never know.

730
00:57:21,375 –> 00:57:26,055
There’s something there, you know,
there’s a message in that someplace.

731
00:57:28,095 –> 00:57:32,265
Jessica, it has been a pleasure
speaking with you today.

732
00:57:32,325 –> 00:57:35,595
I wanna say thank you for
sharing your story here on the

733
00:57:35,595 –> 00:57:37,185
Dead America Podcast with us.

734
00:57:38,265 –> 00:57:39,355
Oh, thank you so much, Ed.

735
00:57:39,355 –> 00:57:41,565
It was, it was an absolute honor for me.

736
00:57:41,715 –> 00:57:42,225
Thank you.

737
00:57:47,285 –> 00:57:55,395
She grew up in the church house shadow
white clapboard and stained glass light,

738
00:57:57,225 –> 00:58:04,605
knew every verse by heart at seven
but the words never felt quite right.

739
00:58:06,654 –> 00:58:16,475
Preacher’s girl this Sunday bears
hiding what she couldn’t be.

740
00:58:16,505 –> 00:58:19,995
Years of silence built a prison.

741
00:58:21,375 –> 00:58:26,285
Minister’s daughter drowns in

742
00:58:28,424 –> 00:58:33,424
pain, Jesus finds her in the rain.

743
00:58:33,424 –> 00:58:39,915
Steve and Paul show her the way,
dying to self, she’s born today.

744
00:58:40,254 –> 00:58:46,075
Second coming lies within.

745
00:58:46,104 –> 00:58:55,194
She met them at a Wednesday meeting,
not the kind her father led,

746
00:58:55,634 –> 00:59:03,424
two old souls with gentle wisdom
spoke of grace instead of dread.

747
00:59:03,424 –> 00:59:10,065
They didn’t quote her father’s sermon,

748
00:59:12,285 –> 00:59:19,694
didn’t ask her to repent, just sat with
her, stilled the rage beside the river.

749
00:59:20,095 –> 00:59:28,479
Minister’s daughter drowns in
pain, Jesus finds her in the rain.

750
00:59:29,829 –> 00:59:38,839
Steve and Paul show her the way,
dying to self, she’s born today.

751
00:59:39,049 –> 00:59:44,659
Second coming lies within.

752
00:59:44,689 –> 00:59:54,359
All the rules she tried to follow,
all the weight she tried to bear,

753
00:59:56,680 –> 01:00:07,459
falling like October leaves now,
dissolving in the autumn air.

754
01:00:07,459 –> 01:00:14,794
Now she walks a different pathway,
still believes, but breathes more free,

755
01:00:16,965 –> 01:00:24,565
sees her father on most Sundays
knows he’ll never truly see.

756
01:00:26,175 –> 01:00:35,504
That there’s a kingdom blooming
in her found in letting go of

757
01:00:35,504 –> 01:00:43,855
the fight, sometimes redemption looks like
drowning, sometimes death proceeds light.

758
01:00:43,855 –> 01:00:54,685
Minister’s daughter drowns in
pain, Jesus finds her in the rain.

759
01:00:55,545 –> 01:01:05,055
Steve and Paul show her the way,
dying to self, she’s born today.

760
01:01:06,865 –> 01:01:14,275
Second coming lies within.

761
01:01:14,535 –> 01:01:17,005
Second coming lies within.

762
01:01:17,384 –> 01:01:21,395
Second coming lies within.