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You can think of that if you want
to, or if you really don’t want to.

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You can think of that
as claiming victimhood.

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But really it’s just being honest and
saying, Hey, we got a big problem here

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and, uh, we all gotta get together and
work on this because it’s eaten us alive.

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Today, we are speaking with Jack Kammer.

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Jack has a website, malefriendlymedia.com.

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Jack, could you please introduce yourself?

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Let people know just a little
more about you, please.

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Uh, hi Ed.

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Thank you.

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Well, let’s see.

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I am a retired social worker.

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I went to social work school at the
age of fifty-four, um, after I had a

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career as a marketing PR/IT person.

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But my hobby that, my advocation,
my passion was about what I did

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without getting paid for it.

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And that was to be an advocate
for men and boys around the

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social issues of men and boys.

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My first actual experience, and that was
in 1983 when I started the radio show

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north of Baltimore, called The Lives of
Men, and it became pretty quickly clear

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that there were a lot of important social
issues connected to what was really going

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on with men as opposed to what some people
liked to pretend was going on with men.

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Which was that men have it easy,
being male is nothing but a privilege,

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being male is nothing but an advantage,
and men don’t have any problems,

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and if they do, it’s their own
fault, and men run the world, and

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so stop talking about men’s issues.

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Only women have problems based on gender.

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And I can’t think of a more
incorrect statement about

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the human species than that.

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And I just became passionately
involved, passionately concerned,

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more and more convinced that if
we’re gonna have a healthy society,

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we have to be willing to say such
radical things as most men are good.

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Now, how do I like to say it?

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Men aren’t perfect, but we’re great.

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Women are great, but they’re not perfect.

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And, you know, being able to say that
women aren’t perfect is a little risky

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sometimes, crazy as that might sound.

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Uh, you know, we, we live in a, in
a, a spirit of the times in which

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you can get into a fight by daring
to suggest that women are human and

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therefore inevitably will do bad things.

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Um, and, you know, if you
can’t talk about somebody’s

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flaws, you’re, they’re
never gonna get better.

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You’re never gonna have a
better relationship with them.

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Uh, you’re just gonna have to grind it
out and, you know, maybe become resentful,

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maybe decide to leave, maybe decide to
become an alcoholic just to numb the pain

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of having to deal with a person who won’t
admit that she ever does anything wrong.

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Um, you know, to, to, to say
that a woman is not perfect these

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days is often called misogyny.

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You know, that to, to dare to, to say
that a woman is human and isn’t perfect

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is the equivalent, in some people’s
mind, as misogyny, woman hating.

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And I’ve come to the conclusion that
the greatest cause of misogyny these

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days is overuse of the word misogyny
for the reasons we just talked about.

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You know, if you, if, if I cannot say
anything that’s the least bit critical

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of a woman or of women in general
without being called a woman hater

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and shamed, and shut down and shunned,
well, my feelings about that woman

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are not going to magically improve.

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They’re gonna go underground,
they’re gonna fester, and

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they’re not gonna get better.

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We’re not gonna improve our
relationship, we might end up

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in a divorce if we’re married.

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Um, so we really gotta get to a
better place where we approximate

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the ability that women have to
voice very strongly what they would

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like to see men do differently.

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It would be great if men felt just as
empowered, just as safe, uh, that they

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would be just as respected, heard, and
listened to if we could say, Honey,

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um, you know, there are a couple things
I really would like to talk with you

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about that are kind of driving me crazy.

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And that can, that can
often go downhill very fast.

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Now it’s probably gonna, it’s
probably gonna go off better with

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your wife because, you know, she
knows you and she loves you, we hope.

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Then you know and love her, we hope.

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But, you know, in the political sphere
where we are so, so, so polarized,

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you really have, it’s hard to be a
man and to say anything about how you

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think women take advantage of things
in a way that’s not fair sometimes.

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I mean, just that can, can cause a huge,
huge problems for a man and, and huge

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problems for, uh, social discourse.

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So, you know, that’s, that’s
who I am and that’s where, that,

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that’s where I’m coming from.

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We just gotta be more honest, more,
uh, fair with each other about

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talking about what’s really true
about us as flawed human beings.

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We’re, we’re not perfect.

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And we’ve talked a lot
about men’s imperfections.

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We really need to get to a point
where we can talk about women’s

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imperfections without being mean about it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Jack, it’s very important
what you’re saying.

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And my wife and I, we had a very
healthy conversation before we,

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we got on here today to have this
conversation because it’s, it’s

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one of those needed conversations.

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We are damaged as a society
and it’s, it’s really urgent

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that we address these things.

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So my first question is, Why
don’t you have a podcast?

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The honest answer, Ed, is because

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it’s a lot of work.

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I did do a podcast.

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Yes, and you know, you know
very well how much work it is.

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And I did do a podcast for a
while, but I didn’t find it

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very fulfilling, um, compared to
the amount of work it required.

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And, you know, it’s probably got
something to do with the fact that,

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you know, like a lot of passionate
people, I think I’ve got some,

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some important ideas that I want to
convey, that I want to get out there.

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And when you’re a podcast host
and you have people coming in from

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all directions, it’s your duty
to help them tell their story.

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And lots of times my guests just
didn’t seem like they really had a

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whole lot new or important to say.

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And so I was doing all this work
so they could say what they wanted

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to say and it’s like, Yeah, but
you’re really missing the point.

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Now I understand that that’s kind of
egotistical, but you know, that’s,

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that’s where I am, that’s where I am.

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I’ve been doing this since 1983 and
you know, I sort of am at the point

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where I think I, I do have some,
some expertise in these issues.

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Uh, I’ve considered them fairly, fully,
uh, I’ve been through a lot of different

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ideas, a lot of different points of view.

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Sometimes I’ve been optimistic,
sometimes I’ve been pessimistic.

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Sometimes I think women are really great,
and sometimes I think women really aren’t

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so great the way they’re treating men.

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So, I sort of, uh, I, I, I
don’t have a podcast ’cause

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I’m, I’m not as nice as you are.

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No.

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Now I, I don’t believe that, Jack.

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But anyway, that’s for another debate.

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You know, we, we are definitely
hurting and it is crucial that we

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have conversations like this no
matter who hosts the conversation.

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And, and you are correct, it
is to highlight the guest.

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And, and that’s what we do here
on the Dead America Podcast.

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And that’s why I really am going to
enjoy today’s conversation because

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it’s one of those conversations
that I’m passionate about.

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I think we are broken.

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We’re not polarized, we’re just smashed.

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And sometimes you have to be smashed
into rubble to be able to form

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yourself into this concrete block.

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And I think that’s where we are
with relationship, men and women.

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Uh, there is no man versus
woman, it’s human beings.

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And I think we all forgot that, men
and women, how we treat each other

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with respect, and dignity, and honor.

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This is really hurting, not only
America, but the world because

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everybody looks on to America as
the so-called leader of the world.

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And I think we’re shamed there
at the current moment also.

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So it’s really about being
truthful, forthright, and yes,

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telling it how you see it.

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Because if we don’t understand
each other and how we actually see

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these problems, there’s no way out.

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So it’s critical that we understand
we are broken and women have just

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as much right as men to feel broken.

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And we, both sexes, need to
understand that and come together

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to form that concrete now.

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What do you think about that, Jack?

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I think that’s great.

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I love your metaphor about having
to break, uh, break things down to

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rubble sometimes to be able to reform
them in a, in a, a new shape and a,

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and a usable block for the building
of, uh, a new and improved society.

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I agree with, I, I like, I
like the way you put that.

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I think, I think you’re right.

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Yeah.

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So, so our relationships are broken, Jack.

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How do we approach this
problem other than podcasting?

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How do we approach the problem
with a rational approach?

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Well, that’s, that’s a great question.

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I think the first thing to say about how
we do it is that we think in terms of

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ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years.

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I think that’s how deep this goes.

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You know, the, the women’s movement
started late fifties, maybe some

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people even traced it to the
forties with Rosie the Riveter.

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Forties, fifties, sixties.

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In 1963 Betty Friedan published
her book, The Feminine Mystique.

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That’s often regarded as the, the,
the starting point for the current

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brand of feminism, which I think Betty
Friedan would not be happy with, to

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see what has happened to her ideas.

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Um, her book was not an, it
was not anti-male at all.

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She talked about a lot of things that
she doesn’t like that men think about

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women, but she didn’t blame men.

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She pointed to the culture, you know,
the ideas that we are raised with.

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She wasn’t mean about it.

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She, she actually was pretty
sympathetic to the fact that life

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was, well, she wrote a book about the
difficulties that women were having.

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Um, but in her book, she
included recognition that it

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wasn’t a picnic for men either.

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She, she even pointed out in her book,
approvingly, a magazine article in Red

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Book Magazine, a very influential women’s
magazine in, I think it was April of 1962,

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and the, the, the title of the article
was Why Young Husbands Feel Trapped.

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And this is Betty Friedan, the woman
who pretty much launched the current

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wave of feminism, was one of the
co-founders of the National Organization

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for Women, was the first president of
the National Organization for Women.

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Very strong woman’s advocate,
but not a detractor of men.

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And in the 1980s, about, uh, seventeen
to twenty some years after she, she

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wrote her book, she wrote, she was
basically a magazine writer in her

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early career, she got an article into
Red Book Magazine herself that said,

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the dialogue has gone on too long in
terms of women alone, let men join

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women at the center of the second stage.

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She was saying, We really
need to hear from men here.

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I think the biggest mistake that the
women’s movement made, and, uh, and

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you can’t trace this to Betty Friedan
because she didn’t do this, but in

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the late sixties, about six years
after Betty Friedan published The

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00:16:08,100 –> 00:16:13,650
Feminine Mystique, a group of women
in New York called The Red Stockings,

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published The Red Stockings Manifesto.

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Now I can’t prove this, but
it certainly is plausible.

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It makes sense, it, all the pieces fit.

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When Betty Friedan published The
Feminine Mystique, it was about how women

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needed more opportunity in their lives.

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Many women, uh, interviewed and,
uh, polled for Betty Friedan’s book

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were college educated women and they
liked being mothers, they liked being

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important to their families, they
love their husbands, but too much

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of any good thing is a bad thing.

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And the problem that had no name,
as Betty Friedan called it, was

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that there were women who wanted
to do more than be at home, taking

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care of kids, running a house.

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Women wanted to be lawyers, doctors,
women wanna be astronauts, soldiers, CEOs.

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And

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you know, it was a shame all those
years that we wasted all of that talent.

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Uh, but we did.

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00:17:27,569 –> 00:17:33,240
And at the same time that Betty
Friedan was talking about what

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women needed, she also recognized
that it wasn’t a picnic for men.

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And I’m old enough to remember that back
in the early days of the women’s movement,

215
00:17:42,390 –> 00:17:46,590
a lot of men were sort of excited about
what Betty Friedan was talking about.

216
00:17:47,430 –> 00:17:52,230
Because it occurred to us that
it was gonna be good for us in

217
00:17:52,680 –> 00:17:54,540
at least two very important ways.

218
00:17:54,660 –> 00:18:02,790
One, as women made money in their own
jobs, the pressure on men to make all of

219
00:18:02,790 –> 00:18:05,370
the families’ money would be lessened.

220
00:18:06,300 –> 00:18:10,290
And that’s one of the hugest
disadvantages of being a traditional

221
00:18:10,320 –> 00:18:14,580
male, you’re making the money and
all of the pressure is on you.

222
00:18:14,940 –> 00:18:19,200
And if the kids don’t have the money
for the braces they need, or the new

223
00:18:19,200 –> 00:18:23,160
shoes, or to go to a good school,
you know, that’s sort of on the man

224
00:18:24,060 –> 00:18:26,430
for, for not being a good provider.

225
00:18:27,900 –> 00:18:32,295
So number one, less pressure
on men to make money.

226
00:18:32,625 –> 00:18:38,355
Number two, if anybody had asked, would’ve
been that a lot of men would’ve said,

227
00:18:38,355 –> 00:18:41,595
Yeah, you know, something else that we
would really like if we’re really going

228
00:18:41,595 –> 00:18:48,975
to pursue this idea of gender equality
and not pigeonholing men into one space

229
00:18:48,975 –> 00:18:53,235
and women into another, just by virtue
of their sex, another thing we’d really

230
00:18:53,235 –> 00:18:59,865
like as men would be, we’d really like to
have more time to get to know our kids.

231
00:19:01,515 –> 00:19:04,785
We don’t want to be working forty,
fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty hours a

232
00:19:04,785 –> 00:19:10,305
week full time with all this pressure
on us and coming home tired and grumpy.

233
00:19:11,565 –> 00:19:14,355
We wanna have better
relationships with our kids.

234
00:19:16,155 –> 00:19:19,635
Women want to be equal in,
in the world of business,

235
00:19:20,115 –> 00:19:23,745
we would like to be equal
in the world of the family.

236
00:19:24,915 –> 00:19:26,145
That’s what we would like.

237
00:19:26,625 –> 00:19:34,575
So when men started talking about that,
women who were thinking of becoming

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00:19:34,575 –> 00:19:38,985
feminists and joining the women’s
movement sort of had some second thoughts.

239
00:19:38,985 –> 00:19:43,995
And a lot of women were kind of hesitant
about this women’s movement thing because

240
00:19:43,995 –> 00:19:50,355
this women’s movement thing, this women’s
lib idea, well, we like part of it, we

241
00:19:50,355 –> 00:19:55,605
want, we wanna have more opportunities
for ourselves, but we’re not really

242
00:19:55,605 –> 00:19:57,945
interested in giving up what we have.

243
00:19:58,395 –> 00:20:05,205
Of being the CEOs of the family, and,
and the main person in the family,

244
00:20:05,534 –> 00:20:09,435
and the, the person who has the
primary relationship with the kids.

245
00:20:09,705 –> 00:20:10,935
We don’t wanna give that up.

246
00:20:11,945 –> 00:20:16,305
We wanna, we wanna get, but that
we’re not so interested in giving.

247
00:20:17,024 –> 00:20:21,405
Well, that presented the problem
for the women’s movement.

248
00:20:21,435 –> 00:20:25,034
How can you be talking about
fairness and equality between the

249
00:20:25,034 –> 00:20:32,805
sexes when you’re only interested,
interested in hearing about and

250
00:20:34,005 –> 00:20:37,395
working on the problems of one sex?

251
00:20:38,715 –> 00:20:44,865
So how did they, how did the, the women’s
movement justify not paying any attention

252
00:20:44,865 –> 00:20:50,445
to this crazy idea men had about being
less responsible for making money and

253
00:20:50,445 –> 00:20:56,235
for being more involved in the family
sphere, which has previously, up till now,

254
00:20:56,235 –> 00:20:58,815
been the, the primary domain of women?

255
00:20:59,235 –> 00:21:04,155
Well, the way they justified not
listening to men was with this,

256
00:21:05,445 –> 00:21:07,275
uh, Red Stockings Manifesto.

257
00:21:07,635 –> 00:21:13,305
Which said, in part, women are oppressed,

258
00:21:15,315 –> 00:21:18,525
our oppression is total.

259
00:21:19,845 –> 00:21:20,925
It actually said that.

260
00:21:21,405 –> 00:21:23,504
Women’s oppression is total.

261
00:21:24,405 –> 00:21:30,225
We identify men as the
agents of our oppression.

262
00:21:31,215 –> 00:21:40,185
So if you can get that idea, which they
did into the media, whole hog, media

263
00:21:40,185 –> 00:21:45,975
ate it up, uh, get it into policymaking
and government, if you can get it

264
00:21:45,975 –> 00:21:50,685
into academia and the social sciences,
if you can get that idea accepted

265
00:21:51,284 –> 00:21:57,585
uncritically that men are oppressors
and women are oppressed, well, then

266
00:21:57,645 –> 00:22:01,935
the oppressed women don’t need to ask
the oppressors, What would you like?

267
00:22:03,795 –> 00:22:06,675
You get to treat ’em any way you
want, including killing them,

268
00:22:07,274 –> 00:22:09,645
annihilating them, banishing them.

269
00:22:11,805 –> 00:22:13,815
That’s pretty much where we are.

270
00:22:13,905 –> 00:22:15,555
Men are not listened to.

271
00:22:16,635 –> 00:22:19,845
We, nobody’s asking, What do you need?

272
00:22:19,845 –> 00:22:20,745
What would you like?

273
00:22:21,015 –> 00:22:25,485
What would, what would a gender
equal world look like to you?

274
00:22:26,295 –> 00:22:28,785
No, we are not part of the solution.

275
00:22:29,715 –> 00:22:31,095
We are the problem.

276
00:22:31,785 –> 00:22:40,965
And it’s not working to operate on the
idea that only one sex is ever sexist and

277
00:22:40,965 –> 00:22:43,725
only one sex is ever harmed by sexism.

278
00:22:44,415 –> 00:22:45,345
It’s not working.

279
00:22:45,615 –> 00:22:52,245
And so how do we, how do, I think you,
I started this answer with your question

280
00:22:52,245 –> 00:22:54,765
of how do we, what do we do, right?

281
00:22:55,785 –> 00:22:59,865
Um, what, what we do is, well,

282
00:23:01,905 –> 00:23:11,250
the easy, the easy part actually, I
think is, to ask fair-minded women, not

283
00:23:11,250 –> 00:23:15,450
the squeaky wheels, not the ones who
really hate men and really think men are

284
00:23:15,450 –> 00:23:23,100
oppressors and women have been oppressed,
but to ask the really equal minded,

285
00:23:23,160 –> 00:23:28,920
fair-minded, honorable women who love
men, love their husbands, love their sons,

286
00:23:28,920 –> 00:23:33,180
love their brothers, love their uncles,
love men in general, appreciate men.

287
00:23:33,930 –> 00:23:41,940
To call upon, encourage, plead,
perhaps, with those kind of women to

288
00:23:41,940 –> 00:23:45,030
just stand up for us when you can.

289
00:23:45,510 –> 00:23:51,000
Like if you’re out with your girlfriends
after work, let’s say, and you know,

290
00:23:51,000 –> 00:23:55,680
three or four of them start, start
harping on some terrible thing about

291
00:23:55,680 –> 00:24:01,500
men, and it’s very sweeping and over
generalized and just not very based in

292
00:24:01,500 –> 00:24:06,565
context, or understanding, or empathy,
or anything, it would be great if

293
00:24:08,804 –> 00:24:16,635
women who appreciate men were to
say something like, Ladies, um, you

294
00:24:16,635 –> 00:24:23,235
know, we’ve talked a lot about how
men are sexist and, and how sexism is

295
00:24:23,235 –> 00:24:26,445
so harmful to the targets of sexism.

296
00:24:26,445 –> 00:24:31,034
Uh, we certainly talk about how we
have been, we as women have been

297
00:24:31,034 –> 00:24:33,855
harmed by men’s sexism against us.

298
00:24:34,784 –> 00:24:37,334
But listen to us, listen to us.

299
00:24:37,784 –> 00:24:40,425
We’re doing the same
thing, we gotta stop this.

300
00:24:40,935 –> 00:24:44,985
We really need to respect men,
ask men what’s going on with them.

301
00:24:45,105 –> 00:24:46,875
Treat them as stakeholders.

302
00:24:47,355 –> 00:24:49,544
We talk about diversity and inclusion.

303
00:24:49,544 –> 00:24:50,175
I mean, come on.

304
00:24:51,060 –> 00:24:55,020
We’ve excluded men for fifty years
in this discussion of how we’re

305
00:24:55,020 –> 00:25:01,560
gonna refabricate our society along
gender fair, gender equal lines.

306
00:25:02,280 –> 00:25:03,330
We gotta stop this.

307
00:25:03,390 –> 00:25:08,820
That’s the easy part, asking women
to stand up because I think women are

308
00:25:08,820 –> 00:25:11,280
sort of more courageous in this topic.

309
00:25:13,290 –> 00:25:18,420
The hard part is going to be
getting men to say anything, and

310
00:25:18,420 –> 00:25:19,920
there’s lots of reasons for that.

311
00:25:20,610 –> 00:25:26,250
It’s almost like we are in exactly
the wrong spot to be able to

312
00:25:26,250 –> 00:25:33,120
say anything about this because,
you know, the last thing a man

313
00:25:33,120 –> 00:25:36,629
wants to, to, to be is a whiner.

314
00:25:38,190 –> 00:25:39,689
Men don’t like to whine,

315
00:25:42,540 –> 00:25:44,280
men don’t, men don’t like to complain.

316
00:25:45,209 –> 00:25:48,659
Men like to see a problem
and solve the problem.

317
00:25:49,350 –> 00:25:52,620
And if they’re, you know, real
macho guys, they’re not gonna

318
00:25:52,620 –> 00:25:55,770
admit that there’s any problem
that they can’t solve on their own.

319
00:25:56,669 –> 00:26:01,229
Because a macho guy says, Ah,
if I got a problem, I fix it.

320
00:26:01,350 –> 00:26:04,080
And if somebody gives me a hard
time, I kick ’em in the ass

321
00:26:04,080 –> 00:26:05,580
and I take care of it myself.

322
00:26:06,060 –> 00:26:10,500
Well, you can’t, you know, very well as a,
as a honorable man, you know, kick the ass

323
00:26:10,500 –> 00:26:12,149
of a woman who’s given you a hard time.

324
00:26:12,149 –> 00:26:14,760
So, you know, that’s
a problem right there.

325
00:26:15,510 –> 00:26:23,129
Um, men do not want to be viewed as
claiming to be victims of any kind.

326
00:26:24,060 –> 00:26:26,909
Oh, now men are victims too.

327
00:26:27,600 –> 00:26:31,469
And that’s an honorable thing, men
don’t want to be seen as victims.

328
00:26:31,469 –> 00:26:33,659
We don’t want to complain
that we’re victims.

329
00:26:34,320 –> 00:26:39,719
But you know, the truth of the matter
is sometimes there are bigger problems

330
00:26:39,750 –> 00:26:46,125
than you can solve that are adversely
affecting you, the people you love

331
00:26:46,125 –> 00:26:48,254
and care about, and your society.

332
00:26:48,885 –> 00:26:55,304
You can think of that if you want
to, or if you really don’t want to.

333
00:26:55,514 –> 00:26:57,824
You can think of that
as claiming victimhood.

334
00:26:58,274 –> 00:27:03,074
But really it’s just being honest and
saying, Hey, we got a big problem here

335
00:27:03,645 –> 00:27:08,564
and, uh, we all gotta get together and
work on this because it’s eaten us alive.

336
00:27:10,514 –> 00:27:11,235
So

337
00:27:14,745 –> 00:27:17,925
men do not want to complain,
we don’t wanna whine.

338
00:27:18,764 –> 00:27:23,864
One of the things that is very big in
male culture, and I think it’s probably

339
00:27:24,284 –> 00:27:27,405
to a different degree, or at least
in a different direction with female

340
00:27:27,405 –> 00:27:29,925
culture, is that what makes a man, a man?

341
00:27:30,705 –> 00:27:35,430
In many ways, and I don’t, I don’t mean
to give a prescription of what a real

342
00:27:35,430 –> 00:27:40,050
man is, ’cause I, I do have a definition
that’s very much at odds with this.

343
00:27:40,230 –> 00:27:45,390
But one of the things that’s very big
in male culture that many men subscribe

344
00:27:45,390 –> 00:27:52,140
to is, that a good and honorable man
is a man who gives more than he takes.

345
00:27:53,730 –> 00:27:55,380
He gives more than he takes.

346
00:27:57,750 –> 00:27:58,050
But

347
00:28:00,090 –> 00:28:06,060
one of the things we need to ask men
to keep in mind is what the flight

348
00:28:06,060 –> 00:28:12,305
attendant tells you at the beginning
of every flight about what you should

349
00:28:12,570 –> 00:28:19,980
do if you’re sitting next to your
kid and the oxygen mask comes down.

350
00:28:21,450 –> 00:28:24,390
You, you’ve been on a jet,
you’ve been on a jet liner?

351
00:28:27,300 –> 00:28:28,710
Put yours on first.

352
00:28:31,679 –> 00:28:32,909
Put yours on first.

353
00:28:33,600 –> 00:28:34,290
Why?

354
00:28:34,439 –> 00:28:36,030
Why do you put yours on first?

355
00:28:36,030 –> 00:28:37,590
Why, why do they want you to do that?

356
00:28:38,699 –> 00:28:39,510
Yeah, of course.

357
00:28:39,510 –> 00:28:44,969
You’re no good if you’re rendered
useless so make sure that

358
00:28:45,030 –> 00:28:48,179
you can survive to carry on.

359
00:28:48,899 –> 00:28:51,750
Worry about yourself, and then others.

360
00:28:52,165 –> 00:28:54,000
And, and its true principle.

361
00:28:54,750 –> 00:28:55,230
Yes.

362
00:28:55,530 –> 00:29:04,230
And so we can ask men to overcome their
reticence about putting themself first

363
00:29:04,230 –> 00:29:11,010
in line in terms of what’s needed right
now to recognize that, you know, if

364
00:29:11,010 –> 00:29:15,840
you’re not functioning well, you’re
no good to the people you care about.

365
00:29:16,800 –> 00:29:18,480
You gotta take something.

366
00:29:19,685 –> 00:29:23,969
You, you gotta, you gotta have
some resources to be alive.

367
00:29:24,959 –> 00:29:28,830
And you know, with that in mind,

368
00:29:30,900 –> 00:29:40,440
it would be good if men started talking
about what we need and how we’re

369
00:29:40,440 –> 00:29:43,890
really sort of like waiting to inhale.

370
00:29:45,300 –> 00:29:46,950
You know, we need some oxygen.

371
00:29:48,060 –> 00:29:52,980
And, and that oxygen isn’t
just O2, it’s not just the gas.

372
00:29:53,040 –> 00:30:00,330
It’s appreciation, respect, caring,
empathy, all of these things that

373
00:30:01,080 –> 00:30:06,480
sort of used to be much more abundant
in the culture than they are now,

374
00:30:07,860 –> 00:30:09,960
especially across gender lines.

375
00:30:11,370 –> 00:30:13,530
So that’s how I think we started.

376
00:30:14,010 –> 00:30:16,680
Be patient, it’s not
gonna happen overnight.

377
00:30:16,680 –> 00:30:18,120
It’s gonna take decades.

378
00:30:20,340 –> 00:30:28,650
And to start small, start humble,
don’t get angry if you can avoid it.

379
00:30:29,445 –> 00:30:35,685
Understand if you feel angry, what do
you really feel before anger jumps in?

380
00:30:35,865 –> 00:30:46,065
What you really might feel is sad,
afraid, frustrated, alone, insecure,

381
00:30:46,185 –> 00:30:48,014
and talk about those things.

382
00:30:48,585 –> 00:30:52,155
You know, like you say to your buddies,
You know, I, look, I’m really worried

383
00:30:52,695 –> 00:30:55,324
about my kids and my grandkids.

384
00:30:55,395 –> 00:30:56,685
You guys worry about that?

385
00:30:57,915 –> 00:31:03,645
Do you, do you think that we as
men are, are being as helpful in

386
00:31:03,645 –> 00:31:07,784
this society as we, as we’d like
to be and making things better?

387
00:31:09,705 –> 00:31:14,925
You know, um, and I think a
lot of men would say, Uh, no.

388
00:31:16,455 –> 00:31:23,220
And then, you know, the whole idea of
men being together is suspect these days.

389
00:31:23,699 –> 00:31:28,260
The Pew Research Center recently did
a, released a study that shows that

390
00:31:28,889 –> 00:31:37,230
people are far more suspicious of men
getting together in male only groups

391
00:31:38,010 –> 00:31:43,439
than they are about women getting
together in female only groups.

392
00:31:44,879 –> 00:31:49,770
Very much related to that research
is research that shows that with all

393
00:31:49,770 –> 00:31:53,669
of the talk we’ve had over the past
several years about implicit bias,

394
00:31:55,860 –> 00:32:02,610
at least one study found, a peer
reviewed, peer reviewed, uh, piece of

395
00:32:02,610 –> 00:32:12,480
research, at least one article found
that the strongest and deepest implicit

396
00:32:12,480 –> 00:32:21,090
bias is not against blacks, it’s not
against any other ethnic group, it’s

397
00:32:21,090 –> 00:32:28,620
not against women, the strongest
implicit bias of all is against men.

398
00:32:29,970 –> 00:32:30,870
It’s against men.

399
00:32:32,640 –> 00:32:33,000
And

400
00:32:33,000 –> 00:32:39,000
so, you know, what does, what does that
mean when men want to get together as

401
00:32:39,000 –> 00:32:43,170
men, you know, to go bowling, or to
sit and have a few beers, or to, you

402
00:32:43,170 –> 00:32:46,470
know, just to sort of talk about our
grandkids, or whatever it is, just to

403
00:32:46,470 –> 00:32:48,510
get to know each other and, and bond?

404
00:32:50,010 –> 00:32:51,210
Oh, what are they doing?

405
00:32:51,210 –> 00:32:52,320
What are those men doing?

406
00:32:52,860 –> 00:32:53,970
What are they talking about?

407
00:32:54,150 –> 00:32:58,980
It’s the patriarchy, we
gotta smash the patriarchy.

408
00:32:59,670 –> 00:33:00,750
They’re oppressors.

409
00:33:01,320 –> 00:33:06,090
You know, we, we gotta get over that and
say, No, actually, we went bowling and

410
00:33:06,090 –> 00:33:07,590
we got to know each other a little bit.

411
00:33:08,100 –> 00:33:11,460
And a couple fellows showed me
pictures of their grandkids and I

412
00:33:11,460 –> 00:33:13,230
showed ’em pictures of my grandkids.

413
00:33:13,980 –> 00:33:17,010
And it was really fun and I
can’t wait to go back next week.

414
00:33:18,149 –> 00:33:20,290
And that’s an important
thing too, right there.

415
00:33:21,419 –> 00:33:31,139
Some, some men will feel, um, especially
in light of research that shows that men,

416
00:33:31,139 –> 00:33:34,800
more than women these days, are saying
they don’t spend enough time with their

417
00:33:34,800 –> 00:33:42,270
kids, some men will feel that when they
have any spare time, they really should be

418
00:33:42,450 –> 00:33:45,330
with their families and with their kids.

419
00:33:46,320 –> 00:33:54,165
But again, men need a little bit
of oxygen from outside the family.

420
00:33:54,170 –> 00:34:01,800
And so taking two or three hours
per week to be with a group of men

421
00:34:03,930 –> 00:34:06,480
is not being selfish to your family.

422
00:34:07,110 –> 00:34:13,174
It’s grabbing that oxygen mask,
getting what you need so that when

423
00:34:13,174 –> 00:34:20,804
you go home, you’re feeling good,
strong, kind, loving, patient.

424
00:34:21,585 –> 00:34:27,944
And when I was doing a podcast, I had
a guest on, his name was Jim Ellis,

425
00:34:28,004 –> 00:34:33,975
recently deceased, who was an advocate,
was a, a, a member, very active

426
00:34:33,975 –> 00:34:37,395
member of a group, I, I don’t think I
remember the name exactly, something

427
00:34:37,395 –> 00:34:41,475
about Motivate, inspire and something.

428
00:34:42,014 –> 00:34:48,079
Um, but we talked about this on
our podcast, that, what, what,

429
00:34:48,975 –> 00:34:52,154
do women ever say, Why are you
spending time with those men?

430
00:34:53,324 –> 00:34:55,544
He said, Ask my wife.

431
00:34:56,594 –> 00:35:01,185
When I come home from a meeting, from my
weekly meeting with this group of men,

432
00:35:02,115 –> 00:35:09,134
I am so full of energy, I’m so pumped
up, I’m so happy, I am so alive that she

433
00:35:11,325 –> 00:35:15,884
wants me to never miss
that meeting any week.

434
00:35:16,515 –> 00:35:21,345
It’s good for the man, it’s
good for the relationship,

435
00:35:21,345 –> 00:35:24,404
it’s good for the woman, it’s good for
the kids, it’s good for the family.

436
00:35:24,795 –> 00:35:31,365
You extend that out, it’s good for the
community for men to not listen to all

437
00:35:31,365 –> 00:35:34,995
of the male bashings that’s, that’s
out there in our culture right now.

438
00:35:36,015 –> 00:35:37,035
Who needs men?

439
00:35:37,035 –> 00:35:38,205
It’s the end of men.

440
00:35:38,415 –> 00:35:43,694
Men are clueless, men are sex crazed, men
just want to drink beer and watch sports.

441
00:35:43,904 –> 00:35:47,924
Men are, they can’t multitask,
you know, all of that stuff.

442
00:35:47,924 –> 00:35:50,115
Men are slobs, all of that stuff.

443
00:35:50,775 –> 00:35:53,625
Men are oppressors, men are violent.

444
00:35:54,404 –> 00:35:58,245
You know, if, if, if you, if you
are immersed in that thinking

445
00:35:59,295 –> 00:36:02,835
about a group of people, do you
wanna go hang out with them?

446
00:36:04,150 –> 00:36:04,370
No.

447
00:36:05,955 –> 00:36:09,345
Why would I want to go hang out with a
bunch of people who oppress other people?

448
00:36:10,365 –> 00:36:14,985
But that’s, that’s the brand, that’s
the reputation of men these days.

449
00:36:16,065 –> 00:36:23,775
Now, we, we mentioned the, the women who
are honorable and really care about men.

450
00:36:24,029 –> 00:36:28,965
We gotta recognize that
there are many women

451
00:36:30,825 –> 00:36:36,735
who are not honorable about men, who
blame all of their unhappiness on men.

452
00:36:37,335 –> 00:36:42,795
Some of which might be well placed,
because who knows what happened to

453
00:36:42,795 –> 00:36:49,035
them in, you know, in, when they were
young, in their families, at school.

454
00:36:49,035 –> 00:36:50,444
Who knows, who knows what happened.

455
00:36:52,335 –> 00:37:01,710
But there are also many women whose
job, who get paid pretty well by

456
00:37:01,710 –> 00:37:06,390
organizations, nonprofit organizations
funded by the big philanthropies,

457
00:37:06,390 –> 00:37:10,440
The Ford Foundation, The Rockefeller
Foundation, by the federal government,

458
00:37:12,360 –> 00:37:23,820
um, professional feminists whose job is
to do everything they can to make sure

459
00:37:23,820 –> 00:37:34,050
that the focus stays on women as having
problems and men as causing problems.

460
00:37:36,420 –> 00:37:41,700
And that is really corrosive,
it’s really corrosive.

461
00:37:43,350 –> 00:37:47,700
Well, well, you know, Jack, that,
that tells me right there, there’s

462
00:37:47,700 –> 00:37:56,319
a, a challenge or a war being placed
on the natural order of things.

463
00:37:57,360 –> 00:38:02,940
There’s always been a natural order
to men and women, and traditionally.

464
00:38:03,600 –> 00:38:09,150
But besides the traditional
roles, it’s a natural order that

465
00:38:09,150 –> 00:38:11,400
those roles have been based on.

466
00:38:12,180 –> 00:38:21,060
And there has been this big blunt,
blatant attack on that natural order.

467
00:38:21,720 –> 00:38:30,120
And I’ve, I’ve kind of witnessed this
for, you know, my whole life, and, you

468
00:38:30,120 –> 00:38:32,790
know, I’m, I’m about to turn sixty.

469
00:38:33,210 –> 00:38:42,900
So there’s, there’s this, you know,
war that’s been brewing and building

470
00:38:42,900 –> 00:38:48,810
over this long period of time,
and it’s got this pendulum effect.

471
00:38:49,580 –> 00:38:57,450
And as we react and they react, the
pendulum keeps swinging back and forth.

472
00:38:57,779 –> 00:39:04,799
What I see is it’s gonna take the
strength of men in that natural order

473
00:39:04,950 –> 00:39:10,379
to grab the pendulum and stop the
pendulum from going back and forth,

474
00:39:10,950 –> 00:39:15,149
and that will help restore a balance.

475
00:39:15,839 –> 00:39:20,490
And that bickering back and forth
that you were talking about, is a

476
00:39:20,490 –> 00:39:24,060
big, big deal about all of that.

477
00:39:25,049 –> 00:39:26,580
Ed, I understand what you’re saying.

478
00:39:27,209 –> 00:39:30,809
I wanna present to you some
different thinking about that.

479
00:39:31,770 –> 00:39:34,799
I, I under, I understand what
you’re saying, I respect it.

480
00:39:35,520 –> 00:39:42,689
And, and you are thinking about what do
we need to do to, to stop this craziness.

481
00:39:45,660 –> 00:39:52,245
When you talk about the natural
order, what I hear, what I think

482
00:39:52,245 –> 00:39:56,504
of, is the primitive order.

483
00:39:57,495 –> 00:40:01,935
The primitive order when we were,
when we were a small band of human

484
00:40:01,935 –> 00:40:07,245
beings walking across the grasslands
of the Serengeti in Africa.

485
00:40:08,205 –> 00:40:14,955
Very vulnerable to being made
extinct by having a saber tooth

486
00:40:14,955 –> 00:40:20,415
tiger jump out of the, I don’t
know, the grasses, or the jungle, or

487
00:40:20,415 –> 00:40:23,924
whatever’s there, and, and eating us.

488
00:40:26,504 –> 00:40:26,745
Yeah.

489
00:40:26,955 –> 00:40:28,365
Well, the Serengeti’s grasslands.

490
00:40:28,365 –> 00:40:28,605
Yeah.

491
00:40:28,964 –> 00:40:35,444
So, um, you know, and when we were,
when we were vulnerable, when we were

492
00:40:35,444 –> 00:40:44,460
living very primitively, we had to
take every opportunity to eek out

493
00:40:44,520 –> 00:40:54,000
every bit of efficiency we could to
ensure that we survived until tomorrow.

494
00:40:54,750 –> 00:40:59,820
So what that meant was, and this
is where natural order sort of

495
00:40:59,820 –> 00:41:01,170
plays into what you’re saying,

496
00:41:03,720 –> 00:41:08,940
we said, Okay, we have babies
here, these babies are important

497
00:41:08,940 –> 00:41:10,680
for the survival of the species.

498
00:41:12,630 –> 00:41:14,400
The woman has the breasts,

499
00:41:16,560 –> 00:41:20,220
I’ve got the bigger muscles, I’m the
man, I’ve got the bigger muscles.

500
00:41:20,640 –> 00:41:25,259
So it’s not the natural order
yet ’cause we haven’t started it.

501
00:41:25,410 –> 00:41:30,779
But the smart thing for us to do
is to have you be in charge of the

502
00:41:30,779 –> 00:41:36,390
babies and I’ll be in charge of
keeping the saber tooth tigers at bay.

503
00:41:40,050 –> 00:41:47,445
As we became more and more civilized
and we started having things like

504
00:41:49,095 –> 00:41:59,205
laws and customs, and taboos, and
constables and jails and you know, as

505
00:41:59,205 –> 00:42:04,155
we became more civilized and had more
rules about what’s gonna be acceptable

506
00:42:05,265 –> 00:42:07,275
among human beings and what’s not,

507
00:42:10,275 –> 00:42:16,905
we still kept those primitive
ideas of what women needed to

508
00:42:16,905 –> 00:42:19,995
do and what men needed to do.

509
00:42:21,465 –> 00:42:27,915
Now in the forties, and fifties, and
sixties, a lot of women didn’t need

510
00:42:28,125 –> 00:42:30,285
to always have a baby on their hip.

511
00:42:30,795 –> 00:42:33,465
The kids could have been at school, right?

512
00:42:34,125 –> 00:42:34,605
Um,

513
00:42:36,765 –> 00:42:39,735
so, so

514
00:42:40,710 –> 00:42:45,600
as civilization became more and more
developed, it became more and more

515
00:42:45,600 –> 00:42:53,910
possible for us to not have to be so
specialized in the idea that women are

516
00:42:53,910 –> 00:42:57,210
taking care of the kids and the men are
taking care of everything on the outside.

517
00:42:59,610 –> 00:43:05,400
For instance, I mean, would you, would you
agree or would you not agree, how do you

518
00:43:05,400 –> 00:43:07,530
feel about women wanting to be doctors?

519
00:43:08,070 –> 00:43:11,190
Is that okay with you or is that
a violation of the natural order?

520
00:43:13,200 –> 00:43:15,120
No, that’s perfectly fine with me.

521
00:43:15,690 –> 00:43:15,960
Yeah.

522
00:43:17,430 –> 00:43:17,820
Okay.

523
00:43:18,120 –> 00:43:25,650
Now, in the 1890s, I’ve read the
diaries of various pioneering women

524
00:43:27,540 –> 00:43:33,450
who dared to say to their families,
especially their fathers, um,

525
00:43:35,840 –> 00:43:41,925
I, I, I’m not, no, I don’t wanna, I
don’t wanna marry John from the, you

526
00:43:41,925 –> 00:43:47,745
know, mercantile exchange even though you
think I should, I want to be a doctor.

527
00:43:50,235 –> 00:43:54,495
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

528
00:43:54,495 –> 00:43:55,755
That’s, no, no.

529
00:43:56,955 –> 00:44:00,975
Or even worse than a
doctor, I wanna be a lawyer.

530
00:44:02,025 –> 00:44:08,505
Oh my God, you want to turn your
back on, on your natural God-given

531
00:44:10,905 –> 00:44:11,295
place in life?

532
00:44:13,210 –> 00:44:18,585
You, a woman who’s supposed to be all
about loving and caring, and listening,

533
00:44:18,585 –> 00:44:23,205
and making people happy and feel good,
and trying to patch up, uh, disagreements.

534
00:44:23,535 –> 00:44:26,235
You wanna give all that up
and become a lawyer and argue

535
00:44:26,235 –> 00:44:28,695
all day and get paid for it?

536
00:44:29,025 –> 00:44:31,045
What kind of a woman are you?

537
00:44:31,654 –> 00:44:34,215
That’s, there might be
something wrong with you.

538
00:44:35,775 –> 00:44:41,925
And so the, the pioneering
women had to get over that and

539
00:44:42,255 –> 00:44:43,785
they have gotten way over that.

540
00:44:44,925 –> 00:44:49,005
Lots of women are great doctors, lots
of women are great lawyers, lots of

541
00:44:49,005 –> 00:44:53,865
women are great politicians, great
scientists, great business people.

542
00:44:54,075 –> 00:44:56,445
We got over all of those stereotypes.

543
00:44:56,895 –> 00:45:06,255
The problem is, I think that with all of
that success that women have wrought for

544
00:45:06,255 –> 00:45:14,385
themselves, following Betty Friedan’s book
about how women need to have more options,

545
00:45:15,675 –> 00:45:22,995
men have far, still today have far
fewer options to achieve what we

546
00:45:22,995 –> 00:45:31,590
were thinking we might get from this
idea of overcoming sexist stereotypes

547
00:45:31,590 –> 00:45:33,810
and, and rigid gender roles.

548
00:45:36,240 –> 00:45:40,410
Now I know it’s true that there are
more and more men who are getting

549
00:45:40,410 –> 00:45:45,330
into the formerly female domain,
and we have full-time fathers now.

550
00:45:45,840 –> 00:45:48,900
Full-time fathers who stay
home, take care of the kids.

551
00:45:49,830 –> 00:45:54,630
When I see them at the playground, I ask
them, How do you like the fatherhood gig?

552
00:45:55,410 –> 00:45:56,580
And they say two things.

553
00:45:56,580 –> 00:45:58,380
Almost always, they say two things.

554
00:45:59,130 –> 00:46:00,600
They’ll say, I love it.

555
00:46:01,350 –> 00:46:05,550
But then they immediately
follow with, It’s a lot of work.

556
00:46:06,630 –> 00:46:10,770
And then I respond with, Well,
well, when you were working, that

557
00:46:10,770 –> 00:46:12,150
was a lot of work too, wasn’t it?

558
00:46:12,900 –> 00:46:16,710
And they smile and they laugh and
they say, Yeah, I guess that was too.

559
00:46:18,210 –> 00:46:24,645
So there are people who look at
those guys and sort of treat them the

560
00:46:24,645 –> 00:46:31,335
way, in the late 1800’s, we treated
women who didn’t wanna stay home

561
00:46:31,815 –> 00:46:33,255
and they wanted to become lawyers.

562
00:46:33,404 –> 00:46:40,335
Here’s this guy who was a lawyer,
hated it, hated it, but really

563
00:46:40,335 –> 00:46:47,295
likes teaching, working with, being
a primary influence on his kids.

564
00:46:47,685 –> 00:46:54,825
And not only that, he’s married to that
lawyer, or her great granddaughter,

565
00:46:55,875 –> 00:46:58,005
he’s, and they rely on each other.

566
00:46:58,335 –> 00:47:02,924
She can go and do her job, become,
work to become a partner in

567
00:47:02,924 –> 00:47:04,875
six years in the big law firm.

568
00:47:05,235 –> 00:47:10,755
But she needs to know that the kids
are safe and the kids are okay.

569
00:47:10,755 –> 00:47:13,785
She doesn’t have to always be
thinking and worrying about the kids.

570
00:47:14,835 –> 00:47:15,735
Joe’s got it.

571
00:47:16,545 –> 00:47:20,085
And I know Joe loves those kids, and I
know he is a great man and a smart guy,

572
00:47:20,085 –> 00:47:22,365
and I love him and I don’t have to worry.

573
00:47:23,355 –> 00:47:25,035
And it works, it works.

574
00:47:25,035 –> 00:47:29,775
Now that’s, that’s the hundred
percent, a hundred percent proposition.

575
00:47:29,955 –> 00:47:33,225
There’s a bazillion different
combinations you can have of that.

576
00:47:34,215 –> 00:47:37,935
You know, where not every woman who wants
to be a lawyer wants to make partner.

577
00:47:37,935 –> 00:47:41,250
A woman who wants to be a lawyer
might wanna just, you know, sort

578
00:47:41,250 –> 00:47:47,265
of, you know, give it 50%, the
other 50%, she wants to be the mom.

579
00:47:48,525 –> 00:47:50,595
All kinds of permutations of that.

580
00:47:51,495 –> 00:47:55,965
But the problem is that when we think
about work/life balance at the law firm,

581
00:47:57,495 –> 00:48:04,515
we’re thinking about policies toward
women who need to take time off from

582
00:48:04,515 –> 00:48:06,884
work to go and take care of the kids.

583
00:48:07,365 –> 00:48:13,965
We don’t think at all about policies
for the male lawyers who would

584
00:48:13,965 –> 00:48:18,075
love to take some time off so they
can go and take care of the kids.

585
00:48:19,485 –> 00:48:24,150
So really, what is this, this
is all about, this is all about

586
00:48:24,150 –> 00:48:26,040
changing the natural order.

587
00:48:26,640 –> 00:48:30,450
I mean, the natural order is,
the essence of the natural order

588
00:48:30,450 –> 00:48:37,830
is that parents love their kids,
mothers and fathers love their kids.

589
00:48:38,430 –> 00:48:42,090
And the natural order is that
they’re, that they’re human beings

590
00:48:42,090 –> 00:48:46,470
and they’re smart, and they can think
about what’s the best way to do this.

591
00:48:47,310 –> 00:48:49,110
And they can do all kinds of things.

592
00:48:51,210 –> 00:48:58,470
So this, this could be considered
reinventing yourselves.

593
00:48:58,710 –> 00:49:02,400
Women reinvented themselves by
saying, We’re not gonna just be

594
00:49:02,400 –> 00:49:04,230
mothers and stay at home all day.

595
00:49:04,800 –> 00:49:05,490
We love that.

596
00:49:05,490 –> 00:49:08,250
But that’s, we want, we
want other things too.

597
00:49:09,060 –> 00:49:13,530
We, women reinvented themselves
as astronauts, and soldiers,

598
00:49:13,530 –> 00:49:19,140
and politicians, and doctors,
and lawyers, that’s wonderful.

599
00:49:19,890 –> 00:49:26,190
We need men to be able to reinvent
themselves, and it’s perfectly

600
00:49:26,190 –> 00:49:29,820
understandable that we need, that
men need to reinvent themselves.

601
00:49:29,820 –> 00:49:34,950
Because look at how their traditional
role has been made pretty much

602
00:49:34,950 –> 00:49:40,320
impossible or very, very difficult
these days with the fact that many

603
00:49:40,320 –> 00:49:48,420
blue collar jobs, many manufacturing
jobs, many jobs for which a high school

604
00:49:48,420 –> 00:49:50,730
diploma was a ticket to a good life,

605
00:49:53,250 –> 00:50:01,140
the economy of men’s occupations has
really changed strongly, even drastically.

606
00:50:02,130 –> 00:50:05,610
So let’s, let’s talk about
reinvention a little bit.

607
00:50:07,410 –> 00:50:10,470
Back in the beginning days
of IBM, the corporation,

608
00:50:12,545 –> 00:50:18,585
IBM’s main business was
to make big computers.

609
00:50:19,215 –> 00:50:23,505
I think they had a nickname
like Big Metal, or Big Iron,

610
00:50:23,505 –> 00:50:24,555
or something like that.

611
00:50:26,265 –> 00:50:30,975
And they were doing really
well making physical computers,

612
00:50:30,975 –> 00:50:32,985
you know, as big as a room.

613
00:50:34,635 –> 00:50:39,045
But as computers advanced, and advanced,
and advanced, became smaller, and smaller,

614
00:50:39,045 –> 00:50:45,825
and smaller, and more and more companies
came into that space with innovations

615
00:50:45,975 –> 00:50:52,125
about how to make computers better,
less expensive, different technologies.

616
00:50:53,805 –> 00:51:00,975
Big Blue, IBM said, Whoa, things have
really changed for us, our business model.

617
00:51:01,905 –> 00:51:02,955
What are we gonna do?

618
00:51:03,435 –> 00:51:05,595
We keep this up, we’re
gonna be out of business.

619
00:51:06,015 –> 00:51:08,265
What they did was they
reinvented themselves.

620
00:51:08,535 –> 00:51:12,315
A bunch of smart
executives said, All right.

621
00:51:12,945 –> 00:51:17,115
What are the two main components of the,
of, of a computer that’s doing good work?

622
00:51:17,445 –> 00:51:22,935
Well, we’ve been working on
one, the iron, the machine, but

623
00:51:22,935 –> 00:51:24,705
it’s nothing without software.

624
00:51:25,845 –> 00:51:26,415
It’s nothing.

625
00:51:26,415 –> 00:51:32,001
Without networking, we’re gonna become,
we’re gonna reinvent ourselves as a

626
00:51:32,835 –> 00:51:35,445
software and computer services company.

627
00:51:36,555 –> 00:51:41,565
Reinvented themselves, it worked,
and they’ve been thriving.

628
00:51:42,885 –> 00:51:49,095
Similarly, I know it’s a big, it’s a
big jolt to a lot of men’s thinking.

629
00:51:49,605 –> 00:51:53,325
Although I think underneath
they might be thinking, Woo, I

630
00:51:53,325 –> 00:51:54,915
would kind of like to try that.

631
00:51:55,605 –> 00:51:57,105
Men reinvent themselves.

632
00:51:57,105 –> 00:52:03,015
Take the, take their, take their
essential components, what are

633
00:52:03,015 –> 00:52:04,515
all the good things about men?

634
00:52:05,595 –> 00:52:10,845
And apply them to running a
house with a bunch of kids.

635
00:52:12,585 –> 00:52:17,955
Raising the kids, uh, helping the
kids learn how to be good people.

636
00:52:18,945 –> 00:52:24,015
I used to work for National
Fatherhood Initiative and at NFI,

637
00:52:24,075 –> 00:52:26,715
we had a word that we made up.

638
00:52:26,715 –> 00:52:28,965
I didn’t make it up, it was
there before I got there.

639
00:52:28,965 –> 00:52:30,205
It was, it’s firmth.

640
00:52:31,065 –> 00:52:32,175
The word is firmth.

641
00:52:32,200 –> 00:52:37,215
And, and NFI used to talk about
it as a characteristic and a

642
00:52:37,215 –> 00:52:41,865
quality that men, especially, were
able to provide for their kids.

643
00:52:42,475 –> 00:52:47,174
Firmth is a combination
of firmness and warmth.

644
00:52:48,765 –> 00:52:52,515
And if you think about, you know,
a really, if you think about a

645
00:52:52,515 –> 00:52:57,884
really good dad, the kind of dad we
would all like to have, he’s firm

646
00:52:57,884 –> 00:53:01,245
with you but he’s warm with you.

647
00:53:01,935 –> 00:53:05,205
And he’s not shaming you
and he’s not out of control.

648
00:53:06,255 –> 00:53:11,069
He’s saying, Look, you, you did
this and here’s why that’s not good.

649
00:53:11,520 –> 00:53:13,230
Here’s why you shouldn’t do it again.

650
00:53:13,680 –> 00:53:18,120
I asked you not to do it,
and so you did it anyhow.

651
00:53:18,120 –> 00:53:22,440
Well, I, you, there’s gonna be some
consequences for your disobeying

652
00:53:22,440 –> 00:53:24,899
me and here’s the consequences.

653
00:53:25,140 –> 00:53:27,899
But I still love you, and you’re
still a great kid, and I’m just

654
00:53:27,899 –> 00:53:30,180
trying to help make you greater,
and greater, and greater.

655
00:53:31,049 –> 00:53:36,270
So that when you grow up, you
can make my grandkids as good

656
00:53:36,270 –> 00:53:37,440
as I’m trying to make you,

657
00:53:39,544 –> 00:53:40,049
you know?

658
00:53:40,799 –> 00:53:47,669
And so it’s, when, when we think of being
a mother now, we think of everything being

659
00:53:47,669 –> 00:53:50,430
sort of pink and frilly and kind and nice.

660
00:53:50,580 –> 00:53:56,805
And I mean, look, women invented
participation trophies, right?

661
00:53:57,645 –> 00:53:59,475
Isn’t that the kind of thing women do?

662
00:54:00,194 –> 00:54:05,355
You know, participation trophies didn’t
come from out of a man’s imagination.

663
00:54:05,625 –> 00:54:08,685
It wasn’t so important that
every kid feel like a star.

664
00:54:09,134 –> 00:54:13,185
No, you’re not a star in soccer,
but you know, you’re gonna

665
00:54:13,185 –> 00:54:14,625
be a star playing the drums.

666
00:54:14,625 –> 00:54:15,315
I can see it.

667
00:54:15,315 –> 00:54:18,435
What’d we, what do you, how do
you wanna do that, you know?

668
00:54:19,095 –> 00:54:19,545
Um,

669
00:54:21,585 –> 00:54:32,115
being a father, it is a very essentially
male masculine thing when it’s done right.

670
00:54:33,285 –> 00:54:37,005
And there’s a lot of joy and
opportunity there for men to reinvent

671
00:54:37,005 –> 00:54:38,775
themselves for this new economy.

672
00:54:38,835 –> 00:54:41,235
And again, it doesn’t have
to be a hundred percent.

673
00:54:41,295 –> 00:54:42,464
He’s taking care of kids.

674
00:54:43,245 –> 00:54:47,759
There’s lots of opportunities for
side hustles, side gigs for the

675
00:54:47,759 –> 00:54:50,549
man to also be making a little
bit of money, but still being able

676
00:54:50,549 –> 00:54:52,169
to be the primary parent at home.

677
00:54:53,279 –> 00:54:54,689
That’s what I think needs to happen.

678
00:54:55,080 –> 00:55:01,979
Not every woman, however this is,
this is, this is where it gets, you

679
00:55:01,979 –> 00:55:04,680
know, a little bit less than ideal.

680
00:55:05,459 –> 00:55:09,270
We’ve talked so far about the woman who
is a great lawyer and wants to be the,

681
00:55:09,870 –> 00:55:14,879
wants to be a partner in six years, and
the, the husband who’s really digging the

682
00:55:14,879 –> 00:55:17,879
idea of being a nurturing parent at home.

683
00:55:19,680 –> 00:55:26,910
And so she loves that idea of letting
him have primary, uh, influence at home.

684
00:55:28,560 –> 00:55:34,299
The truth of the matter is that not
every woman has a fabulous career

685
00:55:35,720 –> 00:55:41,700
and not every woman therefore is
interested in sharing or turning over

686
00:55:41,700 –> 00:55:45,330
to a man, her role as the mother.

687
00:55:46,575 –> 00:55:52,905
Many women just have
jobs, they just have jobs.

688
00:55:53,025 –> 00:55:59,625
And they’re not so thrilled about
the idea of having their husband

689
00:55:59,955 –> 00:56:04,365
take half of their job or sharing
the CEO suite in the family.

690
00:56:05,205 –> 00:56:07,875
These women are watching the
clock nine to five every day.

691
00:56:07,875 –> 00:56:10,515
They can’t wait to get the hell
outta there, they wanna get home.

692
00:56:10,545 –> 00:56:11,535
Why do they wanna get home?

693
00:56:11,805 –> 00:56:14,925
Because home is where the heart
is, that’s where their love is.

694
00:56:16,575 –> 00:56:19,995
And so they’re not so interested
in having this guy be there equal.

695
00:56:22,785 –> 00:56:27,075
Even further along this point, there
are many women who don’t even have

696
00:56:27,075 –> 00:56:31,545
jobs other than to be a mother.

697
00:56:32,955 –> 00:56:38,235
And you know, those women are
really not interested in letting

698
00:56:38,235 –> 00:56:39,875
the fathers of their kids

699
00:56:42,235 –> 00:56:42,905
share.

700
00:56:43,595 –> 00:56:47,565
Certainly not gonna let ’em
have primary influence over the

701
00:56:47,565 –> 00:56:53,065
kids, but is gonna be very, very
reluctant to even share it 50/50.

702
00:56:54,345 –> 00:56:58,275
I’m the mother, you’ll hear
them say, I’m the mother,

703
00:57:00,765 –> 00:57:01,515
where’s the money?

704
00:57:03,225 –> 00:57:04,065
Where’s the money?

705
00:57:05,025 –> 00:57:07,125
You are a sorry excuse for a man.

706
00:57:08,295 –> 00:57:09,045
Where’s the money?

707
00:57:09,975 –> 00:57:12,825
And the guy is thinking, Well,
I don’t, I don’t happen to

708
00:57:12,825 –> 00:57:14,205
be very good at making money.

709
00:57:14,685 –> 00:57:19,214
But these kids and I have great
times when we’re together.

710
00:57:19,275 –> 00:57:22,455
And I’m reading them stories, and
playing games with them, and teaching

711
00:57:22,455 –> 00:57:24,404
them various things, it’s working.

712
00:57:25,125 –> 00:57:30,315
So maybe you should get out there
and make some money, you know?

713
00:57:31,035 –> 00:57:37,725
Um, that’s, you know, that’s my, that’s
my view of what would be a lot happier and

714
00:57:37,725 –> 00:57:44,595
healthier, uh, society with men and, men
and women both treating each other fairly.

715
00:57:47,625 –> 00:57:53,655
We men have given up the idea that we
should be in total control of the economy.

716
00:57:54,765 –> 00:58:01,635
We need to ask women to get over the
idea that they need to be in total

717
00:58:01,635 –> 00:58:07,485
control, top dog, CEO, in the family.

718
00:58:08,205 –> 00:58:13,095
It’s gotta be shared, and if it can
be shared, we don’t have to worry

719
00:58:13,095 –> 00:58:15,225
about who gets what slice of the pie.

720
00:58:16,125 –> 00:58:18,045
We don’t have to worry about that one pie.

721
00:58:18,495 –> 00:58:24,075
If we’re treating each other fairly and we
have a good relationship, we have synergy.

722
00:58:24,555 –> 00:58:29,175
It’s not just one plus one equals two,
it’s one plus one equals infinity.

723
00:58:29,985 –> 00:58:34,245
And we don’t have to worry about one
pie, we can create a whole bakery.

724
00:58:35,055 –> 00:58:38,325
We can make all the pies we want
because we’re working together.

725
00:58:38,325 –> 00:58:41,444
We love each other, we’re
cooperating, we’re trying to optimize.

726
00:58:42,194 –> 00:58:43,185
The sky’s the limit.

727
00:58:45,105 –> 00:58:48,765
You know, we’re not locked
into this one little equation

728
00:58:49,035 –> 00:58:50,595
of one plus one equals two.

729
00:58:51,915 –> 00:58:58,455
So, um, so the way I see it is that
the rate limiting step right here

730
00:58:58,845 –> 00:59:02,444
is women’s willingness to share.

731
00:59:03,165 –> 00:59:09,075
Nobody gives up power for nothing,
but smart people will share it.

732
00:59:12,705 –> 00:59:14,654
That’s, that’s the key right there.

733
00:59:15,690 –> 00:59:17,835
I, I, I really believe that, Jack.

734
00:59:18,315 –> 00:59:22,875
You know, the, the more that we
can transition into a sharing

735
00:59:23,265 –> 00:59:26,565
world, the better for all of us.

736
00:59:26,895 –> 00:59:30,705
You know, the toy box is full of toys.

737
00:59:31,395 –> 00:59:33,615
We can all share the toys.

738
00:59:33,705 –> 00:59:39,944
It’s, it’s fabulous if we just
let people create their own lives.

739
00:59:40,035 –> 00:59:44,115
And I, I really believe that’s
what the essence of what

740
00:59:44,115 –> 00:59:45,765
you’re saying is all about.

741
00:59:46,305 –> 00:59:49,620
You have to let people
decide what they are.

742
00:59:51,430 –> 00:59:51,650
So,

743
00:59:54,404 –> 00:59:56,745
Yes, that’s a, that’s
a great way to put it.

744
00:59:56,745 –> 01:00:00,075
I love that idea of the, of
the toy box full of toys.

745
01:00:00,975 –> 01:00:01,365
Yes.

746
01:00:01,365 –> 01:00:02,745
It’s like unlimited potential.

747
01:00:04,995 –> 01:00:05,865
Yeah, Yeah.

748
01:00:05,865 –> 01:00:08,314
It’s, it’s, that’s right.

749
01:00:08,985 –> 01:00:13,694
Life is what you wanna make
it so get out there and build

750
01:00:13,875 –> 01:00:16,245
what you want your world to be.

751
01:00:16,424 –> 01:00:20,924
Gandhi, you know, Be the change
in the world that you want to see.

752
01:00:21,345 –> 01:00:25,800
And it will happen if
everybody gets on that page.

753
01:00:26,490 –> 01:00:28,230
Jack, what you’re doing is great.

754
01:00:28,260 –> 01:00:34,230
You’re out there spreading good word,
you know, inspiring deep thought.

755
01:00:34,320 –> 01:00:37,350
That’s really what we
need in our world today.

756
01:00:37,710 –> 01:00:41,370
I wanna say thank you for
sharing that here today.

757
01:00:42,120 –> 01:00:48,150
Could you, one, let people know how to
get ahold of you, get involved with you?

758
01:00:48,450 –> 01:00:52,530
And two, do you have a call to
action for our listeners today?

759
01:00:53,700 –> 01:00:54,480
Yes.

760
01:00:54,480 –> 01:00:57,331
It’s a pretty small call to action,
but I, but it would make a, a,

761
01:00:57,336 –> 01:00:59,760
a world of difference to me and
I would really appreciate it.

762
01:01:00,090 –> 01:01:09,245
Um, the, the place to, uh, get ahold of me
is at my website, malefriendlymedia.com,

763
01:01:09,585 –> 01:01:11,625
that’s all one word, no hyphens.

764
01:01:12,075 –> 01:01:14,185
malefriendlymedia.com.

765
01:01:14,685 –> 01:01:20,325
Uh, at malefriendlymedia.com, I
have a contact, uh, menu item if

766
01:01:20,325 –> 01:01:21,645
you want to send me a message.

767
01:01:21,945 –> 01:01:28,155
Um, I also have a follow menu item
in which I ask you to please give

768
01:01:28,155 –> 01:01:31,725
me your email address and I’ll
keep you posted of anything that I

769
01:01:31,725 –> 01:01:37,845
write and publish on Substack, or
Medium, to big blogging platforms.

770
01:01:38,325 –> 01:01:45,915
Uh, I’ll also let you know, um, when I do
a podcast appearance and, uh, when that

771
01:01:45,915 –> 01:01:48,315
podcast is published and what the link is.

772
01:01:49,485 –> 01:01:53,415
Uh, uh, you know, it, it’s been
a great conversation and there’s

773
01:01:53,625 –> 01:01:58,335
not time enough to get everything
into a conversation like this.

774
01:01:58,725 –> 01:02:04,125
So Jack, I’m gonna reach out to you
here later on and ask you back so we can

775
01:02:04,125 –> 01:02:07,005
continue with this great conversation.

776
01:02:07,875 –> 01:02:10,815
And I wanna say thank
you for being here today.

777
01:02:11,685 –> 01:02:13,545
I wanna thank you for being here today.

778
01:02:13,905 –> 01:02:17,645
You’re doing the work, you’re
doing the hard work, and thank you.

779
01:02:17,645 –> 01:02:24,915
I, podcasting is a, is a very
wonderful feature of, it’s, it’s a

780
01:02:24,915 –> 01:02:30,315
very wonderful resource for what we
hope will be the healing of America.

781
01:02:30,915 –> 01:02:34,785
Because it’s, we’re not, we’re
not hiding behind a keyboard.

782
01:02:35,355 –> 01:02:41,055
You are a host, I am a guest, we
have some civility between us.

783
01:02:41,235 –> 01:02:44,924
It’s very much different from, very
much different from lobbing hand

784
01:02:44,924 –> 01:02:46,665
grenades at each other on Twitter.

785
01:02:47,174 –> 01:02:49,845
So I love podcasting and thank
you for making it possible.

786
01:02:51,525 –> 01:02:54,495
Well, it, it’s great to
have guests like you, Jack.

787
01:02:54,855 –> 01:03:00,375
The traditional media is dying
and this is the new media form, so

788
01:03:00,375 –> 01:03:02,595
people should get serious about it.

789
01:03:03,165 –> 01:03:05,165
So thank you for being here today, Jack.

790
01:03:05,165 –> 01:03:06,075
Thank you, Ed.

791
01:03:07,965 –> 01:03:10,799
Thank you for joining us today.

792
01:03:11,459 –> 01:03:17,669
If you found this podcast enlightening,
entertaining, educational in any way,

793
01:03:18,450 –> 01:03:24,870
please share, like, subscribe, and join
us right back here next week for another

794
01:03:24,870 –> 01:03:28,290
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.

795
01:03:28,560 –> 01:03:34,080
I’m Ed Watters, your host, enjoy
your afternoon wherever you might be.