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Can you feel it coming?

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Something’s waking up inside.

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Hearts ablaze, we’re standing
tall breaking chains of yesterday.

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Dead America finds it’s voice,
in the darkness, we make choice.

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Truth and healing lead the way,
hearts ablaze, we’re here to stay.

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Rise from ashes, come what may,
we’re finding hope in disarray.

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Today, we’re speaking
with Dr. Sheldon Greaves.

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He is the author of The
Gorrilla Scholars Handbook.

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Dr. Greaves, could you
please introduce yourself?

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Let people know just a little
more about you, please.

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Sure.

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Um, I, uh, uh, I live in, uh, Albany,
Oregon, uh, with my wife and three cats.

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Uh, I, uh, have a PhD from the
University of California Berkeley

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in Ancient Near Eastern Studies, uh,
which is not particularly marketable,

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but it’s, uh, forced me to develop a
different way of doing intellectual

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work, uh, in ways that are creative
and unusual and frankly unconventional.

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So, uh, my path has taken me to, um, uh,
starting a small, uh, science software

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education company, uh, working on a, um,
uh, an amateur space lift capable rocket

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and co-founding the first, uh, university
designed from the ground up for training

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people in intelligence, counter-terrorism,
and executive protection.

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Uh, so it’s kind of a wild thing
for someone who spent a lot of

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time in graduate school, you know,
learning how to read, uh, ancient

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parchments and clay tablets.

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Uh, what I have done is I’ve taken
what I have learned from that journey

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and put it into this book, which is
basically about how to do interesting

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and intellectual work when you don’t have
access to the tools, uh, of academia.

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Uh, I’m, uh, I, I like to say that I’m
an, an elitist in the sense that I believe

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that we need elite thinkers in every
corner and at every level of society.

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And my book is a pathway to, uh,
making that happen both individually

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and uh, using a life of the mind, a
collective life of the mind, is a way

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of enhancing and augmenting our, our
social lives, our community lives.

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You know, it’s pretty interesting
and very deep in what you do.

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So, talk to us first about why did you
decide to write this book and what do you

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think that it will add to our society?

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Um, well, what kind of started me going on
it was, um, uh, actually another book that

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I encountered back in the, oh boy, this
would’ve been the late eighties, uh, it

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was called, uh, The Independent Scholars
Handbook by a guy named Ronald Gross.

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And he introduced me to a whole
other way of thinking about what it

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means to have a life of the mind.

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Uh, he pointed out that a lot of the,
the most innovative and interesting

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thinkers were people who were outside
of academia back at that time.

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People like, uh, Buckminster Fuller,
Barbara Tuchman, uh, uh, Betty Friedan,

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Eric Hoffer, uh, people who made a real
difference but we’re not associated

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with the university in any way.

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Now, I went to the university because,
uh, it was just kind of a path

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that I had been on for a long time.

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And I studied what I studied because I
was interested in it, not because, um,

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I was intent on going out
and getting rich or anything.

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But in order to do that, I had to
get creative because we were just

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starting to get to the point where
university life was getting expensive.

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It was getting harder and
harder to get in and afford it.

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And at this, while I was doing
my degree, my wife was also

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doing a doctorate at Stanford.

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So we had, we were basically putting two
kids through college as a, as a young

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married couple, uh, namely each other.

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So it seemed to me that there
was something to be said here.

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And as the years went by and I found
myself doing all these strange and

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interesting things, it occurred to
me that this might be something that

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someone else who didn’t get a chance to
go to university might find interesting

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as a way of enhancing their own life.

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Now,

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it started out as a love song
basically to a life of the mind.

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But in the last few years,
obviously things have changed.

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We are now living in a time when
higher education and even the very

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idea of truth is under attack.

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And, um, it strikes me that one way to
fight back against that is to create a

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society where, um, honest dialogue, and
critical thinking, and a love of learning

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is respected, and cherished, and nurtured.

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And so it started out as a love song,
but it’s kind of turned into a manifesto.

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So while the book has a lot of tips
about how you can do research when

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you don’t have access to an university
library or various disciplines that

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will make you a better thinker and
a better scholar, there’s also, for

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instance, a very extensive chapter
on dealing with disinformation,

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and there’s another chapter on,
um, how do you conduct a learning

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community when you’re in a situation

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where the powers that be are doing
everything they can to quash that.

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So I take examples, for instance, from
the, um, uh, the universities that, um,

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uh, allied prisoners of war put together
behind the barbed wire during World

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War II, or the learning, um, societies
and, uh, infrastructure that was put

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together by Welsh coal miners to educate
their kids and then later themselves to

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help them get out of the coal fields.

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Uh, I talk about the, um, uh, the
Antebellum African American literary

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societies where a lot of the basic
ideas behind, um, uh, the abolitionist

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movement got thrashed out and some of,
uh, the African American community’s

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strongest voices received their
initial training, learning to read

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and write, and how to argue a point.

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Uh, so all of these things
kind of play into that.

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And, uh, but I also keep coming
back to the idea that learning

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is a pleasure, uh, you know?

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I, I, there’s, there is no, there are
a few, there are a few phrases that

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perplex me more than the phrase, “Makes
Learning Fun.” Uh, you know, you might as

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well say makes breathing fun, you know?

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Uh, our learning is what we
do, it’s, it’s the human, uh,

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characteristic par excellence.

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Yeah, it, it is.

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It’s part of our human nature, you know,
we, we develop through learning so we

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definitely need learning in our life.

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Uh, I come from a background where books
and learning, it, it was not the focal

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point of human nature and I, I really
lack in many ways because of that.

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So I, I remember interviewing Dr.
Danny Brassell and he, he is a

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great forerunner for kids actively
participating in reading and learning.

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And

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he, he mentioned that having a lot
of books in the home is a great

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way to introduce that learning
instead of a television or other

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interactive learning mechanisms.

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Books are a great way to develop
the mind, and I really dove in and I

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wanted to understand more about that.

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And the more I thought about it, it,
it’s very true because when you learn to

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read and read well, I, I don’t mean just
casually read, I’m talking about diving

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into what reading actually is, learning.

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This, this helps us develop a lot

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better.

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Because if you’re reading it
makes your mind more active.

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You have to actively think, a red
dragon, what does a red dragon look like?

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And you have to imagine this so
it expands your mind a lot more.

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What, what is lacking in our world today
is that physical reading, you know, books

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should be at a hand throw away and, you
know, we, we, we lack the understanding

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of the importance of diving into a book.

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And I did not do that until I was in my
forties and getting close to my fifties.

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So now I am actively reading all the time
and I’m learning that, hey, my mind is

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expanding better because I have to do
those more intricate details of learning

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by imagining and growing with my learning.

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What’s your thoughts on that?

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Well, you’ve, you have nailed a, a,
an, an incredibly important point.

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When I was growing up, when we were
growing up, um, my mother, uh, was

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very active, uh, with the, um, the
local public library in Salem, Oregon.

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She was a member of The Friends
of The, of The Public Library.

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And the public library, uh, was both
a place for us to, um, to, uh, you

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know, go and amuse ourselves and I
suppose it, at some level, it also,

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uh, pinch-hit for my mother as daycare.

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But, um, she was, she was very adamant
about making sure that there were, that

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there were books all over the place.

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I mean, uh, we had lots of books at
home, there was a book mobile that

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showed up, uh, you know, a five
minute bike ride away every Saturday.

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Uh, there were book sales where you could
go and, you know, like every six months

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or so, the library would sell off, uh,
books that they weren’t using anymore.

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Hardbacks were a quarter
and paperbacks were a dime.

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You know, I, I spent six bucks and got
an entire encyclopedia set, you know?

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Um, you know, and, and
that kind of, that stuck.

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And, um, so, you know, I mean,
you can see behind me the whole

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house is like this, you know?

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Uh, and my wife is, is
just as bad as I am.

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Um, we’re not good for each other when it
comes to, you know, us accumulating books.

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And it’s not entirely true
that I married her for her

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library, but, um, uh, you know?

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Um, the, um, uh, you know, the, um,
the, the experience of a book with,

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with actual pages, it’s not just that
you’re interacting with it the way

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you describe, the way you describe
so well, there is now a solid body of

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evidence to show that when students
learn to read from a screen versus

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learning to read from the printed page,

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it’s not as effective on a screen.

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If you get to the end of like, say,
sixth grade, the students who have

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been, uh, reading off of a screen
are on average about two thirds

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of a year behind the students
who’ve been reading off dead trees.

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Uh, and I, I, you know, I can’t really
make any, um, uh, offer any explanation

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as to why that’s true, apart from, you
know, some kind of a lack of interaction.

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I don’t have any kind of scientific or
empirical, uh, explanation for that,

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but that does seem to be the case.

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Uh, the other thing too is that I do
like to, you know, to go through a

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book and, you know, I will, I will mark
things, you know, in like pencil or make

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little notes in the margin, you know?

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Um, there’s a wonderful old
Jewish saying, um, A virgin book

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bears no offspring, you know?

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Uh, you know?

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And, and I think, I think there’s a
certain amount of truth to that, you know?

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My, my book is the result of many,
many other books with lots of

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underlining and, and margin notes.

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So, um, you can’t, you can’t
really do that on Kindle.

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Uh, I mean, they say you can, but
it’s, it’s not the same thing.

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Yeah, it, it’s like an extra effort
beyond and, and it breaks you from what

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you’re doing instead of that quick jot.

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Hand and, hand and eye go together
well and when, when you break that,

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it like takes you away and then you
have to regain your consciousness.

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And, and there’s a study about that
also when you break away and you have to

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come back, it takes your mind a certain
amount of time to refocus and regather.

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So if you’re doing that, you know, pen
and eye to paper, you don’t break away

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and you, you can actually focus better.

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So our learning standards have dropped
in a way by going to these electronic

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devices and it’s, it’s really
caused distractions in many ways.

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And I, I’m wondering, you know, it, it
is a great augmentation of learning, but

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should it be the forefront of learning?

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I don’t think so, I don’t think
it should be at the forefront.

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It’s a, it’s a tool like any other tool,
but you don’t use a hammer for everything.

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Uh, the other problem that I find
is that, um, uh, you know, every

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new piece of technology brings
unintended consequences in its wake.

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And one of the problems that I have found
with, um, uh, this kind of technology,

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at least in the schools, for the last
couple of years, I’ve been working as

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a substitute or an, uh, educational
assistant in the local school district

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and there was this one, uh, class that
I was helping out in, this, this, this

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poor teacher was dealing with thirty-two
kindergartners and they all had their

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iBook, you know, their, their iPads, and

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they were all trying
to log into the system.

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Trying to get thirty-two kindergartners
to all log in to a network in a timely

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manner, it’s like asking a starfish
to do brain surgery, you know?

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I mean, it took forty-five minutes
to get everybody logged in.

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And by that time, you know,
and this was pretty typical.

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I mean, that was on a good day.

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Uh, the, the, the technology frankly
is buggy, it’s not terribly, you

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know, it’s not always reliable.

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And then once you get to it, you
know, it’s a, so much of what’s, what

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is being done there just replicates
what was done with a worksheet.

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Now in the, in the past, I, you
know, I will say grading those

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worksheets took a lot of time.

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The computer saves a lot of time
for the teacher on, in that respect.

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00:17:53,850 –> 00:17:57,389
But does it save as much time as
it takes to get everybody logged

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in and, and, and doing their stuff?

207
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I don’t know.

208
00:18:01,919 –> 00:18:09,389
On the other hand, I’ve seen fantastic
use made of, um, uh, YouTube videos

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and, and you know, things of that sort.

210
00:18:12,435 –> 00:18:15,435
You know, uh, well, let’s find
something, boom, you know, and it,

211
00:18:15,435 –> 00:18:16,995
and it makes things a lot easier.

212
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And for certain kinds of
teaching, uh, that’s great.

213
00:18:20,774 –> 00:18:22,814
You know, I have, I
have no problem with it.

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00:18:23,564 –> 00:18:28,374
But, you know, uh, the other problem,
of course, is during the pandemic when

215
00:18:28,374 –> 00:18:36,465
a lot of education was conducted over
Zoom, and that proved to be problematic.

216
00:18:37,034 –> 00:18:42,195
Because not only was the, was the
education not getting through as well,

217
00:18:42,794 –> 00:18:48,225
there was a lack of socialization among
the students that is, is still being felt.

218
00:18:48,225 –> 00:18:53,084
The effects of that are still being
felt even years later as those kids that

219
00:18:53,415 –> 00:18:58,455
were kind of, not quite socialized are
still trying to get that act together as

220
00:18:58,455 –> 00:19:00,435
they, as they move through the system.

221
00:19:02,024 –> 00:19:07,050
So, you know, um, and now, of course,
we have, you know, we have AI and Chat

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00:19:07,050 –> 00:19:14,730
GPT and all that sort of thing, which
is, um, giving kids an excuse to write

223
00:19:14,730 –> 00:19:16,200
something without thinking about it.

224
00:19:16,200 –> 00:19:17,400
And that’s deadly.

225
00:19:19,635 –> 00:19:20,415
Yes.

226
00:19:21,314 –> 00:19:21,915
Yes.

227
00:19:22,335 –> 00:19:24,554
Uh, that, you hit it right there.

228
00:19:24,585 –> 00:19:32,925
You know, and, and really AI is just
pre-programmed information that these

229
00:19:32,925 –> 00:19:36,975
models have been programmed to output.

230
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So when we think about that, you have
to really go through and edit this AI.

231
00:19:46,860 –> 00:19:51,689
You know, I, I use Descript for
my transcript, for instance, and

232
00:19:53,760 –> 00:20:00,750
I, I would say that transcript is maybe
eighty-nine to ninety percent accurate.

233
00:20:01,320 –> 00:20:08,430
But you need that human oversight to go
through and edit that and make sure that

234
00:20:08,430 –> 00:20:15,090
it’s accurate to the hundred percent mark
or else it, it’s like you said, there’s,

235
00:20:15,690 –> 00:20:20,190
and there’s a lot of people just, oh,
that’s good enough, and they let it go.

236
00:20:21,060 –> 00:20:21,420
But

237
00:20:22,365 –> 00:20:28,875
like you said, it’s an excuse to just
get by and I, I think that is dangerous

238
00:20:28,875 –> 00:20:31,665
for our society in many, many ways.

239
00:20:32,505 –> 00:20:34,335
You brought up YouTube.

240
00:20:35,355 –> 00:20:41,625
YouTube is a fascinating visual,
audible learning device for us, and

241
00:20:41,625 –> 00:20:49,979
it takes me back to, you know, when I
was in school, those big reels would

242
00:20:49,979 –> 00:20:55,960
be pulled out and the projector set up
and we would watch a show, you know?

243
00:20:55,960 –> 00:21:02,820
So that, that was one of the best times of
learning for me in the classroom because

244
00:21:03,710 –> 00:21:07,670
it, it was an image that I could get into.

245
00:21:07,970 –> 00:21:14,690
So there are these different forms
of educating our brain and people

246
00:21:15,650 –> 00:21:18,380
take information in differently.

247
00:21:19,100 –> 00:21:22,130
What, what is your thoughts
and opinions on that?

248
00:21:24,690 –> 00:21:26,550
Well, yeah, you’re absolutely right.

249
00:21:26,649 –> 00:21:30,930
There’re, there’re people who learn
visually, there’re people who learn, uh,

250
00:21:31,010 –> 00:21:36,660
audibly, there’re people who learn when
they’re doing something with their hands.

251
00:21:37,230 –> 00:21:41,460
Uh, and this is one of the problems
that public education has faced from

252
00:21:41,490 –> 00:21:47,820
the beginning is how do you educate a
whole bunch of people, uh, to the point

253
00:21:47,820 –> 00:21:49,670
where they could become useful citizens?

254
00:21:49,730 –> 00:21:56,460
And our solution to that is to apply,
uh, a mass production model where you

255
00:21:56,460 –> 00:22:00,480
have an assembly line and you get a,
and the, and the problem is it’s like,

256
00:22:00,990 –> 00:22:05,370
you know, it’s, it’s like you have
raw material and it’s all different

257
00:22:06,090 –> 00:22:08,640
and you can’t always adjust for it.

258
00:22:08,640 –> 00:22:12,570
And people kind of get squeezed
into, the square peg gets

259
00:22:12,570 –> 00:22:14,140
squeezed into the round hole.

260
00:22:14,450 –> 00:22:16,740
Sometimes you can make it
work, sometimes you can’t.

261
00:22:17,160 –> 00:22:19,800
The other thing too is that
it’s a question of timing.

262
00:22:19,800 –> 00:22:26,040
Some people aren’t ready to handle
Shakespeare in, you know, eighth or

263
00:22:26,040 –> 00:22:29,700
ninth grade, but then maybe a few
years later in their twenties or

264
00:22:29,700 –> 00:22:33,929
something, they, they go to, uh, they
go to a performance of Romeo and Juliet

265
00:22:33,990 –> 00:22:36,450
and they go, wow, that’s amazing.

266
00:22:36,480 –> 00:22:38,550
I wanna learn more about this, you know?

267
00:22:39,149 –> 00:22:44,669
Uh, or, you know, uh, again,
it’s, it’s a question of timing.

268
00:22:44,669 –> 00:22:50,024
Now in, in, um, in earlier times,
let’s, let’s go back to the ancient

269
00:22:50,024 –> 00:22:54,135
Greeks, because that’s kind of where
our education system gets its start.

270
00:22:55,695 –> 00:22:58,604
There were, there were no
grades, there was no graduation,

271
00:22:58,604 –> 00:22:59,415
there was nothing like that.

272
00:22:59,804 –> 00:23:05,024
Education was just kind of
what you did, especially if you

273
00:23:05,024 –> 00:23:07,425
were, uh, a gentleman of means.

274
00:23:07,479 –> 00:23:13,425
In, in fact, our word school comes from a
Greek word schole’, which means leisure.

275
00:23:14,760 –> 00:23:18,960
Because that was considered to be the
appropriate activity of a gentleman

276
00:23:18,960 –> 00:23:24,550
of leisure, and you educated yourself
so that you could hold your own in

277
00:23:24,570 –> 00:23:28,470
freewheeling discussions about the big
ideas with the smartest men in town.

278
00:23:29,610 –> 00:23:34,050
And freewheeling discussions about
the big ideas between the smartest

279
00:23:34,050 –> 00:23:37,320
men in town was also a pretty good
description of Greek democracy.

280
00:23:38,295 –> 00:23:46,665
So, you know, here we are, uh, we’ve
got this, this need to, um, to have

281
00:23:47,085 –> 00:23:50,895
a citizenry that is, uh, educated.

282
00:23:51,765 –> 00:23:57,195
Uh, and especially now when that
educational system is under attack.

283
00:23:57,225 –> 00:24:01,284
I mean, we, we have, um, I mean, okay,
I’m rambling a little bit here, but

284
00:24:01,665 –> 00:24:10,080
it, I’ve, it is, it is a national
disgrace, in my opinion, how, um, school

285
00:24:10,080 –> 00:24:11,700
teachers are treated in this country.

286
00:24:12,360 –> 00:24:15,120
You know, they’re underpaid,
they’re overworked, and it has been

287
00:24:15,120 –> 00:24:18,150
demonstrated on more than one occasion
that they are literally willing

288
00:24:18,150 –> 00:24:19,800
to take a bullet for their kids.

289
00:24:21,005 –> 00:24:24,600
Uh, you know, but, you know, we’re
gonna blame everything on them anyway.

290
00:24:24,990 –> 00:24:34,544
Um, if, uh, if being able to deal
with, with big ideas in open, uh,

291
00:24:34,574 –> 00:24:43,155
discussion is the basis for democracy
in ancient Greece, what kind of

292
00:24:43,155 –> 00:24:47,804
government is our assembly line?

293
00:24:48,645 –> 00:24:54,554
Heavily, you know, edited and in
many cases censored education.

294
00:24:54,764 –> 00:24:57,750
What is, what kind of government
is that preparing us for?

295
00:25:00,600 –> 00:25:02,250
That, that’s unsettling to me.

296
00:25:05,909 –> 00:25:13,770
Well, you know, when we talk about our
politics today, it’s, it’s so shattering.

297
00:25:14,189 –> 00:25:17,490
I mean, the polarization behind it.

298
00:25:17,490 –> 00:25:24,750
And you know, when, when we talk about
politics, it has to be in a fashion

299
00:25:24,750 –> 00:25:31,905
and a form that is intellectual, it
has to be solid and true to itself.

300
00:25:32,475 –> 00:25:37,004
And there’s none of that in
any of our politics today.

301
00:25:37,155 –> 00:25:40,395
It’s, it’s like you said, a disgrace.

302
00:25:40,935 –> 00:25:49,034
And really it’s up to us, the people,
to recognize that and change that.

303
00:25:49,455 –> 00:25:57,120
And that change comes through
the voting box and that, that

304
00:25:57,120 –> 00:26:00,060
gets pretty touchy nowadays.

305
00:26:00,150 –> 00:26:09,780
However, if, if there is no moral aspect
to what we are doing with our political

306
00:26:09,780 –> 00:26:17,505
life and there’s no accountability for
our leadership for the spewing rhetoric

307
00:26:17,610 –> 00:26:20,250
that comes out of these people’s mouths,

308
00:26:22,560 –> 00:26:24,450
what are we as a society?

309
00:26:24,885 –> 00:26:33,465
You know, really Sheldon, we, we as
Americans, yes, we’re finding out.

310
00:26:33,915 –> 00:26:39,255
And we as Americans, the world
looks upon us after World War

311
00:26:39,735 –> 00:26:49,305
II, like this leadership role was
thrust upon us, and yet we have,

312
00:26:51,450 –> 00:26:59,280
we have destroyed the value
in the trust of leadership.

313
00:27:00,150 –> 00:27:06,570
And it’s hard to trust leadership
and authority and science anymore,

314
00:27:07,410 –> 00:27:16,770
and that degradation of our learning
capabilities is extremely important

315
00:27:16,770 –> 00:27:17,520
right now.

316
00:27:18,240 –> 00:27:20,295
We, we have to

317
00:27:22,665 –> 00:27:26,925
reassert to individuals, it’s
okay to be where you are.

318
00:27:27,735 –> 00:27:35,475
And like you just outlined, you
know, it, it takes time to learn and

319
00:27:35,715 –> 00:27:38,745
learning comes when it’s accepted.

320
00:27:39,375 –> 00:27:45,250
So yeah, our leadership and
what we are thinking about

321
00:27:47,550 –> 00:27:55,350
is really off, in my opinion, and I think
we need to bring it back to the teachers.

322
00:27:56,100 –> 00:28:05,010
The teachers should be our number one
priority, second to possibly healthcare.

323
00:28:05,975 –> 00:28:13,680
And, and, and that’s, that’s more
focused on the people and the value

324
00:28:13,680 –> 00:28:19,995
of what they are, and who they are,
what they can bring to our society.

325
00:28:21,345 –> 00:28:23,685
How do we fix this polarization?

326
00:28:26,955 –> 00:28:30,825
Well, you know, one, one of the,
the really important ways I think

327
00:28:30,825 –> 00:28:34,145
to do that is, and you’ve, you’ve
alluded to this a couple of times,

328
00:28:34,675 –> 00:28:42,465
is to reenthrone, uh, honest
dialogue as, uh, a, a real activity.

329
00:28:42,855 –> 00:28:46,875
Now in the book, I have a couple of, I,
I have an entire section that’s devoted

330
00:28:46,875 –> 00:28:51,645
to different ways that you can bring
people together to talk about things.

331
00:28:52,245 –> 00:28:57,765
Uh, like, you know, salons, or seminars,
or teach-ins, you know, and I’m drawing

332
00:28:57,765 –> 00:28:59,595
on a lot of different traditions here.

333
00:29:00,165 –> 00:29:06,735
Um, but there are also some
ways that we can set rules

334
00:29:06,915 –> 00:29:08,715
for how we talk about things.

335
00:29:08,715 –> 00:29:12,524
Now, um, let’s see, are you familiar
with the Long Now Foundation?

336
00:29:13,395 –> 00:29:13,754
Okay.

337
00:29:13,754 –> 00:29:17,745
There, there’re a, there’re a bunch
of, uh, relatively harmless Silicon

338
00:29:17,745 –> 00:29:25,919
Valley bros who are very interested in
thinking about the future of humanity in

339
00:29:25,919 –> 00:29:31,560
terms, in very, very long terms, like,
you know, for the next 10,000 years.

340
00:29:32,220 –> 00:29:36,419
And so they have these, they have
these various projects, uh, some of

341
00:29:36,419 –> 00:29:40,139
them are a little silly, some of them
are rather profound, but they have

342
00:29:40,139 –> 00:29:45,690
developed this very interesting debate
format that they use when they have,

343
00:29:45,840 –> 00:29:50,280
uh, public debates on some of these
big topics that they’re dealing with.

344
00:29:50,730 –> 00:29:51,990
So here’s how it works.

345
00:29:52,020 –> 00:29:54,630
Let’s say you have two
debaters, Alice and Bob.

346
00:29:55,500 –> 00:30:02,880
Alice starts out, she sets out
her position and her argument,

347
00:30:03,360 –> 00:30:04,950
and then it goes over to Bob.

348
00:30:04,980 –> 00:30:14,565
But Bob cannot present his, uh, argument
until he has articulated Alice’s

349
00:30:14,565 –> 00:30:17,235
argument to Alice’s satisfaction.

350
00:30:18,720 –> 00:30:23,070
When Alice is, is convinced that Bob
knows, you know, and is not distorting

351
00:30:23,070 –> 00:30:26,100
anything, then Bob can make his argument.

352
00:30:26,340 –> 00:30:28,020
And then the same thing happens there.

353
00:30:28,020 –> 00:30:35,430
Then Alice has to re, you know, and
what you find is in some cases, um,

354
00:30:36,495 –> 00:30:41,070
in, in, in a few really odd cases, you
find out that both, both debaters are

355
00:30:41,070 –> 00:30:42,810
actually talking about the same thing.

356
00:30:43,250 –> 00:30:46,040
They’re just talking about it
in different ways, you know?

357
00:30:46,460 –> 00:30:53,600
Um, another example is if you have two
debate, uh, debating sides, um, but you

358
00:30:53,600 –> 00:30:59,300
have a little committee of, I don’t know,
maybe three or four or five people in the

359
00:30:59,300 –> 00:31:04,670
middle, ordinary lay people who have read
up on the subject and they are referees.

360
00:31:05,480 –> 00:31:09,860
And if one side, uh, starts using some
kind of jargon, they say, wait a minute.

361
00:31:10,455 –> 00:31:12,825
You used a term there, you need
to explain what that means.

362
00:31:12,825 –> 00:31:15,195
I don’t know what that
word means, you know?

363
00:31:15,465 –> 00:31:19,335
Or if they’re, if they’re pulling
something funny, they call them on it.

364
00:31:19,665 –> 00:31:25,095
And the referees kind of have, you
know, the, the, the power to do that.

365
00:31:25,725 –> 00:31:31,635
Uh, yet another, um, another technique
that sometimes turned up in some

366
00:31:31,635 –> 00:31:37,544
of the, um, uh, the salons in, uh,
18th and 19th century, uh, Paris,

367
00:31:38,054 –> 00:31:45,885
was that the salonniere would, um,
uh, suddenly call for each side to,

368
00:31:46,425 –> 00:31:54,024
um, to argue the case, to, to switch
sides so that A had to argue on B’s

369
00:31:54,024 –> 00:31:55,937
behalf and B had to on A’s behalf.

370
00:31:55,937 –> 00:31:56,654
And this is

371
00:31:56,654 –> 00:31:59,444
actually, uh, a technique that’s
often used in the intelligence

372
00:31:59,444 –> 00:32:03,524
community when you have two groups
that are trying to figure something

373
00:32:03,524 –> 00:32:07,574
out, and they’ll, they’ll switch and
each one will argue the other side.

374
00:32:07,604 –> 00:32:11,414
And very often something very
fruitful comes out of it.

375
00:32:11,414 –> 00:32:17,084
And it’s a good way to avoid, um, your own
biases getting injected into something.

376
00:32:17,084 –> 00:32:23,475
But, but all of these things, um,
they, uh, they avoid misunderstanding.

377
00:32:23,475 –> 00:32:28,649
But what’s more important, they also
cultivate a kind of enforced empathy where

378
00:32:28,649 –> 00:32:32,789
you really do have to see what the other
person is thinking and, and, and seeing.

379
00:32:32,794 –> 00:32:39,629
And, and quite honestly, if you are
engaged in a debate, the best way

380
00:32:39,629 –> 00:32:43,799
to win that debate is to know the
other guy’s argument better than they

381
00:32:43,799 –> 00:32:49,499
do, uh, because then your argument
is gonna be much, much stronger.

382
00:32:49,709 –> 00:32:50,399
But, you know?

383
00:32:51,570 –> 00:32:54,239
So, so there, there are ways around this.

384
00:32:57,914 –> 00:33:00,089
Yeah, that’s very true.

385
00:33:02,129 –> 00:33:02,369
Yep.

386
00:33:03,329 –> 00:33:08,309
Uh, another organization similar
to what you described is Braver

387
00:33:08,309 –> 00:33:12,659
Angels, and they bring both sides in.

388
00:33:12,839 –> 00:33:22,049
And, you know, it’s, it’s a unique
debating, uh, form and, and I highly

389
00:33:22,169 –> 00:33:27,449
suggest you look those people up
and it, it’s unique, Braver Angels.

390
00:33:28,889 –> 00:33:36,330
So, yes, I, I believe they’re based
out of Canada, uh, if I remember right.

391
00:33:36,330 –> 00:33:38,580
It’s, it’s been a little while.

392
00:33:40,290 –> 00:33:50,159
So, you know, we, we have a lot
of these nuances coming at us,

393
00:33:50,340 –> 00:33:52,949
and podcasting is one of them.

394
00:33:52,949 –> 00:33:59,804
It’s like one of these areas that
people are kind of congregating

395
00:33:59,804 –> 00:34:02,384
to for these discussions.

396
00:34:02,774 –> 00:34:09,705
And I’m finding that more of the
medium to long form discussions are now

397
00:34:10,529 –> 00:34:17,969
being popularized and being presented
to people and it’s more acceptable.

398
00:34:17,969 –> 00:34:23,429
And I feel that this is a great
way to entice learning in our

399
00:34:23,429 –> 00:34:31,710
communities, to bring more of this
free nature podcasting to our society.

400
00:34:31,979 –> 00:34:32,784
What do you think of that?

401
00:34:35,114 –> 00:34:39,015
Oh, I think it’s a wonderful development
and I think it reflects the fact

402
00:34:39,015 –> 00:34:45,345
that people are hungry for quality
content, uh, for um, for meaningful

403
00:34:45,345 –> 00:34:50,415
discussion, and something that isn’t
just, uh, you know, somebody up

404
00:34:50,415 –> 00:34:55,199
there staring wild-eyed and spittle
flecked and yelling into a microphone.

405
00:34:55,739 –> 00:35:00,359
Uh, that gets old after
a while, it’s exhausting.

406
00:35:00,960 –> 00:35:04,950
Uh, and in some cases I
think that’s the point.

407
00:35:05,429 –> 00:35:08,969
But, um, yeah, I, I’m delighted to see it.

408
00:35:08,969 –> 00:35:14,460
And I’m also, uh, you know,
very pleased to see, uh, that.

409
00:35:14,939 –> 00:35:18,839
I, I, frankly, when I started looking
for, you know, at podcasts where I

410
00:35:18,839 –> 00:35:24,839
could, uh, promote the book, I was
astonished at the range of and number

411
00:35:24,839 –> 00:35:26,609
of podcasts that are out there.

412
00:35:27,059 –> 00:35:30,479
And I just think, Wow,
that is, that is great.

413
00:35:30,540 –> 00:35:33,450
We need that, we need that desperately.

414
00:35:33,839 –> 00:35:37,109
So, you know, kudos, keep it going.

415
00:35:37,259 –> 00:35:38,669
Let’s, let’s continue.

416
00:35:39,540 –> 00:35:44,814
We may not have Public Broadcasting
for, uh, for that much longer.

417
00:35:44,904 –> 00:35:50,875
But it’s not like we don’t have the
public who is broadcasting or podcasting.

418
00:35:51,115 –> 00:35:54,564
So public broadcasting gives
way to public podcasting.

419
00:35:55,854 –> 00:35:56,274
Yes.

420
00:35:56,394 –> 00:35:56,875
Yes.

421
00:35:56,934 –> 00:36:00,234
I, I think that that’s a
great point you bring up.

422
00:36:00,234 –> 00:36:06,540
You know, our current administration,
and we’re recording this, what, in

423
00:36:06,540 –> 00:36:14,460
August of 2025, so it’s Donald Trump in
this administration doing some pretty

424
00:36:14,460 –> 00:36:17,700
horrific things to Public Broadcasting.

425
00:36:17,700 –> 00:36:26,434
I, I was raised watching Public
Broadcasting and it, it is, it has always

426
00:36:26,580 –> 00:36:35,040
been a place where you could present
ideas to the public in a public form.

427
00:36:35,040 –> 00:36:44,009
And you, you get more unbiased approach
to news with Public Broadcasting.

428
00:36:44,279 –> 00:36:52,050
And yet we’re seeing this
diminishing effect on all of these

429
00:36:53,100 –> 00:36:58,290
things that matter to our society
through our current administration.

430
00:36:59,279 –> 00:37:05,250
And it, it seems like nobody’s
speaking up about a lot of it

431
00:37:05,819 –> 00:37:12,750
because they’re terrified of the
consequence, maybe, I, I don’t know.

432
00:37:13,410 –> 00:37:18,450
And I, I think that’s very disturbing
that we’re finding ourselves in

433
00:37:18,450 –> 00:37:24,210
a position where Americans are
terrified to step up and say,

434
00:37:24,210 –> 00:37:26,069
Hey, you’re doing the wrong thing.

435
00:37:26,580 –> 00:37:35,295
Your, your thoughts are diminishing
what American values have always

436
00:37:35,295 –> 00:37:43,635
bolstered, you know, freedom, respect,
uh, common dignity to your fellow man.

437
00:37:43,725 –> 00:37:44,475
And

438
00:37:46,515 –> 00:37:54,510
where, where do you see our, our
lives going if we take away these

439
00:37:54,510 –> 00:37:59,880
aspects of learning through such
means as Public Broadcasting?

440
00:38:01,080 –> 00:38:06,330
Well, it’s not just that we’re going to
lose Public Broadcasting, that’s going

441
00:38:06,330 –> 00:38:11,399
to be replaced by broadcasting that
is not in the interest of the public.

442
00:38:11,970 –> 00:38:17,970
I mean, we already see, you know,
um, right wing media and, uh,

443
00:38:18,240 –> 00:38:23,760
and various conspiracy theory
oriented, uh, organs out there.

444
00:38:24,240 –> 00:38:33,090
And what you’re going to get is, um, uh,
a crueler society, a more cynical society.

445
00:38:33,750 –> 00:38:39,974
Uh, you’re gonna find people who are
less, um, willing to, uh, look out for

446
00:38:39,974 –> 00:38:42,045
other people, look out for each other.

447
00:38:42,825 –> 00:38:46,785
Uh, there will still be people who are
willing to do that, brave souls who

448
00:38:46,785 –> 00:38:50,714
are, who are willing to push against
that, but there’s going to be a cost.

449
00:38:51,750 –> 00:38:57,660
Uh, and I think a lot of the rhetoric
that we’re seeing that decries,

450
00:38:57,719 –> 00:39:03,389
uh, or denigrates things like, like
learning, like, uh, social justice

451
00:39:03,389 –> 00:39:08,910
and things like that, it’s intended
to raise the social and political

452
00:39:08,910 –> 00:39:11,130
cost of exercising your conscience.

453
00:39:12,179 –> 00:39:18,045
Uh, that, you know, there are
other regimes out there who have

454
00:39:18,045 –> 00:39:22,665
done that sort of thing, uh,
and it’s, it’s a very old story.

455
00:39:23,055 –> 00:39:29,335
My hope, however, is that
there is always a resistance.

456
00:39:30,435 –> 00:39:35,849
And sometimes it takes decades to
find its way, uh, find its way out.

457
00:39:36,479 –> 00:39:42,059
Uh, I’m thinking for instance,
um, late 19th century Poland,

458
00:39:42,179 –> 00:39:46,080
uh, was under Prussian rule at
this, at that particular moment.

459
00:39:46,679 –> 00:39:52,710
And, uh, the government closed the
universities to anyone who wasn’t male

460
00:39:52,710 –> 00:39:54,420
and a friend of the, of the government.

461
00:39:55,200 –> 00:40:02,370
And so the people of Poland, the, uh, the
disenfranchised, uh, university people,

462
00:40:02,670 –> 00:40:05,010
they set up their own secret universities.

463
00:40:05,010 –> 00:40:08,309
They were called Flying Universities
because they had to keep moving around

464
00:40:08,309 –> 00:40:16,484
to, uh, stay ahead of the authorities
and, um, they proved to be very effective.

465
00:40:16,484 –> 00:40:20,925
In fact, one of the, uh, one of their
innovations was that they admitted women.

466
00:40:20,955 –> 00:40:22,305
Oh, you know, heavens.

467
00:40:22,694 –> 00:40:28,035
And one of the women who, uh, was, who
received her undergraduate education

468
00:40:28,035 –> 00:40:32,085
at one of these Flying Universities,
uh, grew up to be Marie Curie.

469
00:40:33,615 –> 00:40:37,755
Uh, you know, and there was a,
this, this came back, uh, the Flying

470
00:40:37,755 –> 00:40:41,745
Universities came back to Poland
during the, uh, communist years.

471
00:40:42,375 –> 00:40:49,335
And one of the, uh, people who
received his education, uh, in this

472
00:40:49,335 –> 00:40:54,585
secret underground university, uh,
we know him as, as Pope John Paul II.

473
00:40:55,425 –> 00:41:04,035
So it’s possible to have really first
rate minds come out of these bad

474
00:41:04,035 –> 00:41:09,255
circumstances, but we have to be willing
to take risks and we have to be willing

475
00:41:09,255 –> 00:41:17,054
to, um, equip ourselves with the kinds
of tools that I have tried to lay out,

476
00:41:17,325 –> 00:41:25,200
uh, in, in this book, uh, about not
just, uh, not just thinking and reading

477
00:41:25,200 –> 00:41:30,120
and researching, but organizing and
learning to talk to each other, uh,

478
00:41:30,120 –> 00:41:31,769
even if we have to do it in a whisper.

479
00:41:32,849 –> 00:41:35,160
And that’s not the American way.

480
00:41:35,279 –> 00:41:40,620
Uh, you know, it, it, and, and it’s
hard for people to understand that

481
00:41:40,620 –> 00:41:43,349
because we’ve lived under these

482
00:41:46,965 –> 00:41:53,984
immoral ways for a long time
and, you know, I’ve, I’ve watched

483
00:41:53,984 –> 00:42:02,625
it creep in and people, they,
they need to educate themselves

484
00:42:02,625 –> 00:42:04,965
because I, I think that’s the key.

485
00:42:04,965 –> 00:42:15,000
If we let them dumb society down through
things like the iPhone and the easy way,

486
00:42:15,479 –> 00:42:22,800
like we talked about earlier, if, if
we rely on Google to do everything and

487
00:42:22,800 –> 00:42:30,120
think everything through for us, we’re
subject to some harsh treatment later.

488
00:42:30,420 –> 00:42:36,000
Because you can’t feed yourself, you
can’t fish, you can’t hunt, you know,

489
00:42:36,000 –> 00:42:42,450
you, so it’s vital to understand how
to take care of yourself because no

490
00:42:42,450 –> 00:42:46,830
one is responsible for you except you.

491
00:42:47,490 –> 00:42:52,210
And I think that’s critical
in these days to understand.

492
00:42:52,990 –> 00:42:59,205
And, and through my research, I
found out that your book offers

493
00:42:59,384 –> 00:43:07,995
information on how to find resources
and sources of information that

494
00:43:08,505 –> 00:43:11,115
is true and accurate and correct.

495
00:43:11,174 –> 00:43:13,484
Could you talk to us about that section?

496
00:43:14,745 –> 00:43:15,464
Sure.

497
00:43:15,464 –> 00:43:17,264
Um, uh,

498
00:43:20,205 –> 00:43:23,684
the problem is that, uh,
everybody lives in a bubble.

499
00:43:24,599 –> 00:43:28,469
Uh, it’s sort of in the same
way that everybody is on a diet,

500
00:43:28,529 –> 00:43:31,740
it’s just that some diets are
deliberate and some diets are not.

501
00:43:32,399 –> 00:43:37,349
And so how you curate your
bubble is, is very important.

502
00:43:37,679 –> 00:43:43,439
So I, uh, as I mentioned earlier on in
the broadcast, I spent some time, um, uh,

503
00:43:43,710 –> 00:43:45,899
with the, with the intelligence community.

504
00:43:46,500 –> 00:43:51,630
And one of the things I learned was
that as an intelligence analyst, what

505
00:43:51,630 –> 00:43:56,785
differentiates you from a run of the mill
scholar is that the intelligence analyst

506
00:43:56,785 –> 00:44:02,514
has to always be aware of the possibility
that someone is trying to spoof them.

507
00:44:03,054 –> 00:44:04,854
Someone is trying to deceive them.

508
00:44:05,399 –> 00:44:07,680
Well, we’re all an
intelligence analysts now.

509
00:44:08,069 –> 00:44:12,479
So, um, what you have to do is
you have to be very deliberate

510
00:44:12,630 –> 00:44:14,430
about what your sources are.

511
00:44:14,970 –> 00:44:21,630
You have to, you know, if, if you have a
source that, um, you know, tells you, uh,

512
00:44:21,630 –> 00:44:27,149
that something is one way consistently,
and it obviously turns out not to be the

513
00:44:27,149 –> 00:44:32,889
case and they don’t correct themselves,
then you kind of have to just, I don’t,

514
00:44:33,069 –> 00:44:35,200
I don’t accept that from them anymore.

515
00:44:35,709 –> 00:44:40,779
Uh, there are some sources that are
good on some things, bad on others.

516
00:44:41,139 –> 00:44:45,009
The Wall Street Journal is pretty
good on business stuff, but their

517
00:44:45,009 –> 00:44:47,500
editorial page is full of cranks.

518
00:44:47,559 –> 00:44:50,049
So I don’t pay attention
to the editorial page.

519
00:44:50,620 –> 00:44:54,700
Um, you know, you just,
that’s, that’s part of it.

520
00:44:54,729 –> 00:45:00,629
You just have to, you have to be kind
of strict about who you listen to.

521
00:45:00,689 –> 00:45:03,750
And if they don’t measure up,
you stop listening to them.

522
00:45:04,349 –> 00:45:05,339
Now, that’s one side.

523
00:45:05,939 –> 00:45:11,925
Another side is that there are people
out there who do know stuff that

524
00:45:11,955 –> 00:45:16,545
don’t really have a vested interest
in pushing one agenda or another.

525
00:45:17,115 –> 00:45:21,825
And interestingly, uh, at least
for the moment, uh, one of the best

526
00:45:21,825 –> 00:45:23,654
sources of that is the US government.

527
00:45:24,344 –> 00:45:30,974
So by law, every, um, every congressional
district has to have at least one

528
00:45:31,335 –> 00:45:35,894
government documents repository that
is stocked with stuff that comes

529
00:45:35,894 –> 00:45:39,104
from the government printing office
or the superintendent of documents.

530
00:45:39,585 –> 00:45:47,024
And one of the things that you can access
there is a guidebook to, uh, that, that is

531
00:45:47,024 –> 00:45:49,694
basically a catalog of government experts.

532
00:45:50,354 –> 00:45:57,929
So if you want to find an expert
on, uh, I don’t know, uh, Salmon

533
00:45:57,929 –> 00:46:01,679
populations, up here in the Pacific
Northwest, that’s a big thing.

534
00:46:02,370 –> 00:46:08,819
You can contact the, um, government
documents repository or go there and

535
00:46:08,819 –> 00:46:12,660
one of the people there can point
you in the direction of some person,

536
00:46:12,660 –> 00:46:17,009
give you a name and an email address
or phone number of two or three

537
00:46:17,009 –> 00:46:21,090
people at Fish and Wildlife who are
experts in that and can, can help you.

538
00:46:22,170 –> 00:46:28,470
Uh, and there are, there are of course
other, uh, services like that that serve

539
00:46:28,529 –> 00:46:30,330
like journalists and that sort of thing.

540
00:46:30,540 –> 00:46:31,620
But this one is free.

541
00:46:32,460 –> 00:46:34,470
Well, for the moment anyway, who knows?

542
00:46:34,470 –> 00:46:36,240
They may try to privatize that.

543
00:46:36,660 –> 00:46:37,889
So that’s one example.

544
00:46:38,519 –> 00:46:45,240
Um, another example is, uh, making
better use of your public library.

545
00:46:45,840 –> 00:46:50,804
Uh, the thing is there is so
much more in a public library

546
00:46:50,804 –> 00:46:52,335
than just what’s on the shelves.

547
00:46:52,995 –> 00:46:57,554
Uh, get to be good friends, get to
be on a first name basis with the

548
00:46:57,554 –> 00:47:02,085
reference librarian, they are wizards.

549
00:47:03,194 –> 00:47:07,544
They can find stuff that you
had no idea was even out there.

550
00:47:08,325 –> 00:47:12,464
Uh, and, and that’s another thing too,
is that Google doesn’t have everything.

551
00:47:13,469 –> 00:47:19,139
Maybe, uh, I don’t know what,
between five, maybe optimistically

552
00:47:19,139 –> 00:47:25,529
nine percent of the web is actually
indexed by Google, uh, the rest isn’t.

553
00:47:26,069 –> 00:47:32,130
And there’s also huge bodies of knowledge
and, and information out there that is

554
00:47:33,029 –> 00:47:39,599
never going to get it, is never gonna get
on the web because of copyright rules or

555
00:47:39,599 –> 00:47:41,939
other, um, intellectual property laws.

556
00:47:42,870 –> 00:47:45,990
There’s no way they’re gonna let
that on the web because then, you

557
00:47:45,990 –> 00:47:47,130
know, they’ll lose control of it.

558
00:47:48,240 –> 00:47:52,319
But the librarians, they can, they
can figure out how to get that stuff.

559
00:47:53,189 –> 00:48:01,019
Now another problem is that, um,
academic journals are almost impossible

560
00:48:01,019 –> 00:48:04,769
to access for ordinary people
because they’re sitting behind these

561
00:48:04,890 –> 00:48:09,240
ridiculous paywalls where it costs,
it costs you, you know, forty bucks

562
00:48:09,240 –> 00:48:11,819
to download a PDF of a ten page paper.

563
00:48:12,420 –> 00:48:20,279
Uh, but there are now networks out there
where you can look for these things.

564
00:48:20,700 –> 00:48:26,910
Uh, you know, like there’s a, um, there’s
a trick you can use on, uh, on Twitter,

565
00:48:26,910 –> 00:48:30,899
X, whatever the hell they’re calling
it now, uh, I think it’s the hashtag

566
00:48:30,899 –> 00:48:35,429
ICANHASPAPER or something like that,
it’s, it’s in the book, where you put

567
00:48:35,429 –> 00:48:39,359
that out there with a, the title and the
author of a paper that you’re looking

568
00:48:39,359 –> 00:48:44,189
for and if someone, and you know, someone
can see that and say, Oh, I’ve got a

569
00:48:44,189 –> 00:48:45,990
copy of that, here, I’ll send it to you.

570
00:48:46,859 –> 00:48:53,594
Uh, there are also, uh, a lot of,
um, frankly, pirate sites where they

571
00:48:53,594 –> 00:48:59,325
have millions, literally millions of
academic, uh, papers and research and

572
00:48:59,325 –> 00:49:04,394
even entire books that would normally
be behind payables, but they’re out

573
00:49:04,394 –> 00:49:05,924
there and you can get them at, okay,

574
00:49:05,924 –> 00:49:06,224
Yeah.

575
00:49:06,285 –> 00:49:07,094
Downloading it.

576
00:49:07,754 –> 00:49:11,615
Uh, technically that’s illegal,
but so is jaywalking, you know?

577
00:49:11,665 –> 00:49:14,904
I mean, that’s, that’s kind
of my, my attitude towards,

578
00:49:14,965 –> 00:49:16,225
towards these sorts of things.

579
00:49:16,644 –> 00:49:21,505
So there’s, there’s a whole, there’s
a whole lot of different ways that

580
00:49:21,505 –> 00:49:24,475
you can access, uh, information.

581
00:49:24,865 –> 00:49:32,365
Uh, and, uh, quite honestly, um, the
more, the more laterally you think,

582
00:49:32,365 –> 00:49:37,064
what you’ll often end up finding,
the real payoff is when you find

583
00:49:37,064 –> 00:49:38,774
something that no one else knows about.

584
00:49:39,014 –> 00:49:40,724
I mean, no one else knows about.

585
00:49:41,505 –> 00:49:45,404
And, um, that’s, that’s
when it really gets fun.

586
00:49:46,035 –> 00:49:51,764
So, uh, there are a lot of opportunities
I think out there for independent

587
00:49:51,764 –> 00:49:55,814
scholars, for gorilla scholars
that aren’t working under the, the

588
00:49:55,814 –> 00:50:01,335
kinds of funding and disciplinary
constraints that academics have.

589
00:50:01,965 –> 00:50:07,814
Uh, and they also aren’t working
under the same, um, constraints of

590
00:50:07,814 –> 00:50:09,255
where they get their information.

591
00:50:09,885 –> 00:50:15,240
Uh, there’s a whole area of inquiry out
there that’s just waiting to be tapped.

592
00:50:15,240 –> 00:50:20,880
And I think that, um, uh,
gorilla scholarship is a way

593
00:50:21,060 –> 00:50:23,130
to get out there and do that.

594
00:50:23,130 –> 00:50:28,290
And in those, at, at the same
time, improve the quality of our

595
00:50:28,290 –> 00:50:30,269
discourse and our political thinking.

596
00:50:34,769 –> 00:50:35,040
Yeah.

597
00:50:35,684 –> 00:50:36,795
Yeah, I like that a lot.

598
00:50:37,215 –> 00:50:43,015
You know, in essence, we all should be
polymathic and we should be autodidact,

599
00:50:43,575 –> 00:50:47,894
and that’s when the true learning begins.

600
00:50:48,314 –> 00:50:53,234
And, you know, that, that’s when you
can talk about the love of learning.

601
00:50:53,865 –> 00:51:00,104
You know, forced learning through the
institutional values, I’m, I’m not

602
00:51:00,104 –> 00:51:10,439
convinced that that is really the way
to have our communal dialogues per se.

603
00:51:10,769 –> 00:51:16,710
And this new frontier, if you will,
is allowing people to discover

604
00:51:16,979 –> 00:51:19,109
that they do have things to offer.

605
00:51:20,129 –> 00:51:24,404
So, you know, it, it’s been
fascinating speaking with you

606
00:51:24,404 –> 00:51:28,290
today, it just got started it seems.

607
00:51:28,889 –> 00:51:34,229
I could speak for hours with you
because you are a wealth of knowledge.

608
00:51:35,194 –> 00:51:40,294
Could you tell people how they can get
ahold of you, get in touch with you,

609
00:51:40,294 –> 00:51:41,884
get involved with what you’re doing?

610
00:51:44,794 –> 00:51:45,334
Sure.

611
00:51:45,394 –> 00:51:47,014
Um, well, let’s see.

612
00:51:47,044 –> 00:51:50,615
Uh, you can, you can
find my book on Amazon.

613
00:51:51,660 –> 00:51:58,649
Uh, it’s available in hardback, soft
cover, uh, uh, electronic copy and,

614
00:51:59,189 –> 00:52:01,439
uh, it’s published through spines.com.

615
00:52:01,439 –> 00:52:04,680
And if you go through them, you can access
various platforms that have the audiobook.

616
00:52:05,684 –> 00:52:06,585
So there’s that.

617
00:52:07,215 –> 00:52:14,894
Uh, probably the best way to get a
hold of me is to, um, email me at,

618
00:52:15,104 –> 00:52:20,715
uh, sheldon@gorrillascholar.com and
that’s with two R’s and two L’s.

619
00:52:21,314 –> 00:52:26,375
Um, uh, just look at the title
of the book, because gorilla can

620
00:52:26,375 –> 00:52:30,904
be spelled with one r or two,
either one is, is apparently okay.

621
00:52:31,444 –> 00:52:33,335
But I use two R’s and two L’s.

622
00:52:33,844 –> 00:52:41,434
Uh, so sheldon@gorrillascholar.com and,
um, uh, yeah, that’s, uh, you know, I’d

623
00:52:41,434 –> 00:52:45,665
love to hear from, from some of your
listeners and, uh, you know, I’d love to,

624
00:52:45,665 –> 00:52:49,790
I’d love to continue this discussion if,
uh, if the opportunity presents itself.

625
00:52:52,340 –> 00:52:57,134
Yeah, there, there’s definitely more
dialogue that needs to happen between

626
00:52:57,134 –> 00:53:03,404
us, uh, because we, we didn’t even
scratch the surface on, you know,

627
00:53:03,705 –> 00:53:10,174
your, your knowledge about biblical
understanding and the Hebrew Bible, the,

628
00:53:10,664 –> 00:53:14,115
you know, this is fascinating to me.

629
00:53:14,444 –> 00:53:21,135
And I think the number one thing,
politics and religion in our life.

630
00:53:21,734 –> 00:53:29,265
And everybody’s afraid to be
honest, true, and be curious.

631
00:53:29,475 –> 00:53:34,995
And, and I think if we formulate
that curiosity instead of,

632
00:53:35,115 –> 00:53:36,675
Hey, I have to be right.

633
00:53:37,769 –> 00:53:40,589
We’re gonna have a great, bright future.

634
00:53:41,099 –> 00:53:47,129
Is there anything else, Dr. Greaves, that
you wanna share with our listeners that

635
00:53:47,129 –> 00:53:49,889
we haven’t covered about learning today?

636
00:53:51,509 –> 00:53:57,629
Uh, I guess the only thing that I would,
I would do, uh, that I would want to

637
00:53:57,629 –> 00:54:06,299
add is just to, to reiterate, uh, that
learning is, is, is a source of joy.

638
00:54:06,509 –> 00:54:12,330
Um, there’s, um, one of my favorite
novels growing up was, uh, T.H.

639
00:54:12,330 –> 00:54:13,920
White’s, the Once and Future King.

640
00:54:14,670 –> 00:54:19,319
And there’s this wonderful
quote that, um, comes out of it.

641
00:54:19,319 –> 00:54:23,759
Merlin is talking to, to, uh,
Arthur, who’s having a bad day.

642
00:54:24,359 –> 00:54:31,649
And, uh, Merlin, uh, says, The best thing
for being sad is to learn something,

643
00:54:32,370 –> 00:54:34,740
that is the only thing that never fails.

644
00:54:35,130 –> 00:54:39,510
You may grow old and trembling in your
anatomies, you may lie awake at night

645
00:54:39,510 –> 00:54:44,099
listening to the disorder of your veins,
you may miss your only love, you may

646
00:54:44,099 –> 00:54:49,080
see the world about you devastated
by evil lunatics or know your honor

647
00:54:49,080 –> 00:54:52,109
trampled in the sewers of baser mines.

648
00:54:52,679 –> 00:54:55,649
There is only one thing
for it then, to learn.

649
00:54:56,279 –> 00:54:58,990
Learn why the world wags and what wags it.

650
00:54:59,774 –> 00:55:04,575
That is the only thing which the mind
can never exhaust, never alienate,

651
00:55:05,115 –> 00:55:10,925
never be tortured by, never fear or
distrust, and never dream of regretting.

652
00:55:11,974 –> 00:55:16,005
That is an awesome way to
end a podcast right there.

653
00:55:16,514 –> 00:55:21,495
Dr. Sheldon Greaves, I, I thank
you for sharing with us today, and

654
00:55:21,795 –> 00:55:23,774
you have a wealth of knowledge.

655
00:55:24,134 –> 00:55:25,335
Thank you for being out there.

656
00:55:26,085 –> 00:55:28,304
Thank you, it’s my pleasure.

657
00:55:28,304 –> 00:55:28,904
Thank you.

658
00:55:45,835 –> 00:55:51,729
Chasing dreams in the neon glow, ancient
pages turned, but the rebels know.

659
00:55:51,779 –> 00:55:57,279
Dusty roads hum a restless tune,
under the harvest of a broken

660
00:55:59,569 –> 00:56:00,020
moon.

661
00:56:01,170 –> 00:56:10,740
Only ivory cracks when the wild ones
speak, gorilla lies where the back

662
00:56:13,020 –> 00:56:15,149
streets meet.

663
00:56:16,590 –> 00:56:17,700
From Sheldon’s

664
00:56:20,180 –> 00:56:22,600
trail to the county fair, knowledge
blooms where the brave ones dare.

665
00:56:22,600 –> 00:56:28,740
Blackboard rivers and chalk dust
skies, every whisper wears a disguise.

666
00:56:28,740 –> 00:56:32,910
But the harmonic calls through
the hollering pine, breaking

667
00:56:32,910 –> 00:56:34,520
chains with a voice divine.

668
00:56:34,880 –> 00:56:41,150
Schoolhouse starts swinging wide
tonight, lanterns burn with stolen light.

669
00:56:43,240 –> 00:56:50,350
The clear ones rise with the sun so clear,
tearing down what the old world fears.

670
00:56:50,820 –> 00:56:58,120
Only ivory cracks when the wild
ones speak, gorilla lies where

671
00:57:03,750 –> 00:57:05,720
the back streets meet.

672
00:57:05,720 –> 00:57:13,080
From

673
00:57:15,240 –> 00:57:24,220
Sheldon’s trail to

674
00:57:28,830 –> 00:57:34,520
the county fair, knowledge
blooms where the brave ones dare.