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Because even though I went through
all of this work, I did all of that

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work meant for my mental health.

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You still get to a point in your
life where you’re like, okay, I’m

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this person now what do I do with it?

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And, and so that’s where I
come into play, you know?

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Today, we are speaking with Susan Snow.

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Susan is a trauma resilience
coach, a speaker, and an author.

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She is also the daughter of a slain Los
Angeles Police Department Detective,

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Thomas C. Williams, who was killed in
the line of duty on October 31st, 1985.

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Susan, could you please
introduce yourself?

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Let people know just a little
more about you, please.

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Sure, absolutely.

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Uh, hi everyone.

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Um, like he said, uh, I am the daughter
of, uh, detective Tom Williams.

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And, um, when I was seventeen,
uh, he was a, a robbery/homicide

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detective at the time.

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And, um, I also had a six-year-old brother
and, uh, it was Halloween night and my dad

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was, uh, a lead detective on a case that
he was testifying that morning in court.

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And he and I chatted about it.

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And, uh, I wanted to go
to a party that night.

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It was, I was seventeen, I was a teenager,
I wanted to go out with my friends.

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Uh, he said, Absolutely
no, it’s a school night.

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And so, you know, he just said,
uh, When we come home, When I

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come home, we’ll talk about it.

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But the plan was that he was gonna
leave court, go to my brother’s school,

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pick him up from school and come home.

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Meanwhile, my mom and I would be home.

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And so when I got home from school, I got
ready for my night and my mom came home.

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She was still in her costume
from work, her work party.

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And the phone rang.

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And when it rang, I went and grabbed
it ’cause I thought it was for me.

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And it wasn’t for me, it was a
lady from my brother’s school.

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All she said was that there was a
drive-by shooting and my dad was involved.

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My mom came around the corner and I saw
her so I handed her the phone immediately.

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And I watched her demeanor
and I watched her posture.

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And as she was talking to this lady,
I could just tell that it was bad.

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She got off the phone and she
said, We’re going to the school.

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So, school was about seven
minutes from my childhood home.

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We got there and the way that, uh,
Faith Baptist is set up is there is

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a parking lot right in the middle of
the school and after school care got

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out on the backside of the school.

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So that’s where we headed.

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As we started heading there, um, it
was nighttime by now, and I could just

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see the sky was lit up by all of the,
uh, police cars lights, and then there

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was an ambulance in the road as well.

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So we were walking and then she and I
both caught, uh, my, my dad’s truck,

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so we started to run towards the truck.

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And when we got closer, we saw
that there was glass on the ground.

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We rounded the corner, and there he was
partially covered up with a white sheet.

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And at that moment I watched my mom
buckle and she started screaming,

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and my teenage mind was not able
to comprehend what I was seeing.

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So what I ended up doing is
focusing on the ambulance.

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And my brain kept saying, Why,
why, why isn’t anybody helping him?

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Where is everybody?

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What?

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Why isn’t he being helped?

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Soon enough, two officers came up and
grabbed our arms and escorted us back into

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the school where we went to an office and
my mom was taken aside by some detectives.

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I sat in the office just trying
to comprehend what was happening

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because there was so much chaos
going on, and I still was not

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comprehending what was happening.

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I still was not comprehending
that he was gone.

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It wasn’t until I heard two ladies talking
in the office, they worked there, and

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the one lady said that, that, uh, Mr.

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Williams was deceased.

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And at that point, my life
shattered, my world shattered.

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And all I can think of is getting
up out of that chair and running

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outta that room and running as far
as I could from this nightmare.

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But my legs and everything in my body
felt like cement, I couldn’t move.

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Wasn’t very long after that,
my mom came to me and she said,

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I’m sending you with a neighbor.

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And I know that in that moment
I wanted to run out of there

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and run away from the scene.

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But the kid part of me wanted to
be with my family unit, I needed

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to be with my mom and my brother.

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At that point, I didn’t even
know where my brother was.

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I didn’t know if he was
hurt, I didn’t know anything.

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I had no information.

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All I knew is I was
going with the neighbor.

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And the neighbor picked me up, took
her to her house, took me to her house.

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And, uh, she had known my parents for
years and she, herself as an adult,

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was trying to comprehend everything.

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And, uh, here she had, uh, his
daughter who was totally inconsolable

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at the point, at that point.

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And she tried really hard to
be there for me and, you know,

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console me the best that she could.

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But I had been dating this boy for
about three months, and at that

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point, all I wanted was my boyfriend.

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So I asked her to call him at work.

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And he, he was nineteen at the time.

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And he showed up and
he had no information.

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So when he showed up at the door,
he said, Grab your purse, grab your

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jacket, let’s go to the hospital.

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What hospital is he at?

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Where’s your mom?

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Where’s your brother?

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You know, all the normal, uh,
questions that you would get.

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And, um, I couldn’t spit it
out, I couldn’t say the words.

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But the more persistent he got, the
more I just blurted it out, He’s gone.

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And he said, What do you mean he’s gone?

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And I said, He’s gone.

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He’s not at a hospital.

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And at that point, I watched my
nineteen-year-old boyfriend drop

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to his knees and start sobbing.

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And both of us were just trying
to navigate all of the things that

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were going on in that very moment.

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This was mid eighties.

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So back then there was no talk of mental
health, there was little known about PTSD,

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and there were no resources for kids.

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Not even LAPD had systems in place
for children of fallen officers.

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They really, um, focused on the
wives, the widows, and the widowers.

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And my poor neighbor had no idea
what she was doing with us, you know,

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she was just, she was trying to,
um, work through her own emotions.

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And like I said, it was very chaotic.

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‘Cause that night my quiet little
neighborhood was overwrought with police

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cars and, um, we had helicopters overhead.

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And the media ascended because it was a,
it was a huge story at the, at that time.

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So when I finally did go home, um,
there were cars in my driveway that I

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didn’t recognize, and we had police,
um, we had armed police officers who

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were in our front yard and our backyard.

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And I, I went in the house and
my house was filled with people,

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I had no idea who they were.

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I know now they were dignitaries and,
uh, advocates and all kinds of people.

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And I could hear my mom in the
kitchen, um, faintly, I still

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had no idea where my brother was.

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And I, I literally just
ran in my room and hid.

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I didn’t wanna talk to anybody, I
didn’t want any questions, uh, nothing.

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And I had this feeling of, um, just
wanting to hide, I just wanted to hide.

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And the next day, uh, when I
looked outside, ’cause I didn’t

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sleep, it was sunlight and we
still had the police presence.

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I finally got to see my brother, it
was about 11 o’clock in the morning.

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And I had heard him crying in the middle
of the night, so I knew he was okay

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and at home ’cause I had heard him cry.

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But at that time, I
had nothing left in me.

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I couldn’t even get up out
of my bed at that point.

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So I figured my mom would console him.

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And when I did finally get to see him,
it was the first time I could hug him,

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and tell him I loved him, and tell him
that we were gonna get through this.

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Um, and so it, you know, it
was just going from a normal

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teenage life to this, was crazy.

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It was surreal.

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They didn’t catch the men that were
involved in my dad’s murder for six days.

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So we had police presence for six
days and, um, I had bodyguards.

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I mean, it was just nuts.

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It was crazy, and I
don’t wish it on anyone.

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Um,

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it wasn’t too long after the funeral,
everything kind of died down a little

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bit, my mom came to me and said that LAPD
wanted to pay for us to go to therapy.

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Well, at the time I thought, If you go
to a therapist, that means you’re crazy.

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Because that was just my,
that was my young mind, and I

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didn’t know anything different.

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But I was also living in a
life where I was in fog, I was

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like walking around in a fog.

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I wasn’t even living, I was existing.

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And I was dealing with a lot
of depression, and I was, I

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had suicidal ideation, although
I didn’t know what it was.

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Um, and I was very anxious ’cause my
dad was my protector and now he’s gone.

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And at the time, uh, I didn’t have a
really solid relationship with my mother.

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It, it was a little bit on the toxic side,
so trying to navigate that relationship

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as well with my dad not being there.

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And so when my mom voluntold me that I was
going to therapy, I was like, All right.

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I was kind of in that state of mind
that if you pushed me in a direction,

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that’s the direction I would go.

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So I did go to therapy
and I met the therapist.

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And in hindsight, I don’t believe
that this therapist was ready

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to get into the weeds with me.

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I don’t think that he was
trauma competent or informed for

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that reason, for that manner.

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And I was, um, I was really struggling,
but at the same time, I was scared to

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tell him what he was, what I was feeling,
for the fear that he would lock me up.

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You know, he’d send me to the looney
bin and that would be it for me.

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So I didn’t say anything and I didn’t
know how to verbalize it anyways.

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Um, he didn’t, he didn’t ask me, he didn’t
ask me the questions of, you know, what I

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was feeling or what that night did to me,

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which blows people’s mind.

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But if he’s a therapist that didn’t wanna
get in the weeds with me, I get that.

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If he asks that question, then he’s
in it and he better know how to

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help me through it.

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So for an entire year I saw this man.

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And our sessions were really
common, they were very shallow.

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It was all about my relationship
with my mom, my relationship with

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my brother, my boyfriend, and school
since I was a senior in high school.

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And that was it.

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And every week I was like, today’s the
day he’s gonna help me feel better.

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Today’s the day.

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And then I would leave and
just not feel any better.

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In fact, sometimes I felt worse.

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And after a year of this, he looked
at me and said, Susan, you’re

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a well-rounded young lady and I
don’t need to see you anymore.

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You’re gonna be fine for
the rest of your life.

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And I left that office and
I was like, okay, that’s it.

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I’ve cracked, I’m crazy, not
even a professional can help me.

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I’m gonna have to figure
this out on my own.

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Which was terrifying because now I’m
only, I’m still a, a kid, I’m eighteen.

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And I just did what I did naturally,
which is I created this emotional mask

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based on what people told me I was.

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So if someone said, Oh my gosh,
you were so brave, you’re so

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strong, you’re gonna be fine.

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That was it, that was it.

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And I wore that thing so well that
no one on the exterior knew the

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turmoil that was going on, no one.

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00:16:08,120 –> 00:16:12,689
And not even my boyfriend knew
everything that was going on at the time.

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00:16:14,460 –> 00:16:18,450
I was scared to tell him because I
thought he would hightail it out of there.

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And he really, at the time, was
the only thing that I had that was

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00:16:23,250 –> 00:16:27,930
positive in my life besides, you
know, some of my close friends.

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So I didn’t tell him either.

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00:16:33,569 –> 00:16:36,675
And I lived like this.

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00:16:36,675 –> 00:16:41,745
I, I, I married him, we’re still
together almost forty years later.

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00:16:43,065 –> 00:16:46,305
Um, so I married him and we had two kids.

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00:16:46,395 –> 00:16:51,525
And in 97 we decided it was
time to leave California.

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00:16:51,585 –> 00:16:58,605
I, I was ready to like, kind of put
that part of my life aside and go

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00:16:58,605 –> 00:17:03,385
somewhere where no one knew me, no one
knew the story, no one knew anything

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00:17:04,155 –> 00:17:08,895
and start over, quotations, start over.

214
00:17:10,694 –> 00:17:19,694
Um, because little did I know that
your pain and anguish and trauma goes

215
00:17:19,694 –> 00:17:21,435
with you no matter where you are.

216
00:17:22,244 –> 00:17:23,984
So geography didn’t matter.

217
00:17:26,534 –> 00:17:32,534
So we, we moved, uh, April of 97, and at
the time I was working as a hairdresser.

218
00:17:33,645 –> 00:17:36,725
I was working in a salon that
was close to Littleton, Colorado.

219
00:17:38,205 –> 00:17:44,055
And on April 20th, of 1999, I was
working that day, uh, I had taken a

220
00:17:44,055 –> 00:17:48,765
break from, uh, my client and went into
the back room and turned on the TV.

221
00:17:48,795 –> 00:17:54,585
We had a little tiny TV back there in
our break room and up popped the live

222
00:17:54,585 –> 00:17:56,775
coverage of the Columbine shootings.

223
00:17:59,835 –> 00:18:08,215
I started having flashbacks, I turned
pale, I started sweating, I could feel an,

224
00:18:08,254 –> 00:18:17,055
an anxiety attack coming, and I was really
confused, because remember, I was told I

225
00:18:17,055 –> 00:18:18,825
was gonna be fine for the rest of my life.

226
00:18:19,455 –> 00:18:21,885
So I didn’t recognize
what was happening to me.

227
00:18:22,335 –> 00:18:24,315
And my colleagues did not know my story.

228
00:18:25,185 –> 00:18:28,455
So when they saw me going through
all of this, they were confused.

229
00:18:29,145 –> 00:18:31,275
And they’re like, We don’t get it.

230
00:18:31,275 –> 00:18:34,545
You’re, you’re not old enough
to have kids there, we know you

231
00:18:34,545 –> 00:18:36,435
don’t live around that area.

232
00:18:36,495 –> 00:18:38,385
What, what is happening to you?

233
00:18:39,315 –> 00:18:42,375
And I couldn’t answer it, I had no idea.

234
00:18:44,205 –> 00:18:49,765
So what I did was, what I always
did, I put that mask back on and

235
00:18:49,765 –> 00:18:51,780
I went out and I finished my day.

236
00:18:52,050 –> 00:18:58,620
Now everybody around me was so upset,
crying, angry, I mean, you name it.

237
00:18:59,790 –> 00:19:05,190
And I was just like, this isn’t gonna
affect me, I’m gonna finish my day, this

238
00:19:05,190 –> 00:19:10,860
is gonna be fine and inside I was a mess.

239
00:19:10,889 –> 00:19:13,620
But out exterior wise, no one saw it.

240
00:19:13,920 –> 00:19:14,710
Nobody saw it.

241
00:19:16,290 –> 00:19:21,090
The minute I walked through those doors
to get in my car, everything flooded back.

242
00:19:21,450 –> 00:19:22,290
Everything.

243
00:19:23,610 –> 00:19:26,010
And I felt like I was spiraling.

244
00:19:26,580 –> 00:19:33,120
Um, I had suicidal ideation,
I, I had plans in my head.

245
00:19:33,360 –> 00:19:36,750
But at the same time, I had
this like internal fight.

246
00:19:37,620 –> 00:19:42,720
Because even though I didn’t wanna feel
like this anymore, I had two babies

247
00:19:42,720 –> 00:19:46,139
at home and I need to stay for them.

248
00:19:47,760 –> 00:19:55,110
And so, um, I didn’t know what I was
gonna do and it wasn’t until my husband

249
00:19:55,110 –> 00:20:00,240
stopped me at the door, ’cause he’s a
very smart man, and he watched me spiral.

250
00:20:00,240 –> 00:20:04,169
He saw it coming and he knew
it was a slippery slope.

251
00:20:05,639 –> 00:20:11,280
So he said, he told me, You have
two choices, you either get help

252
00:20:11,949 –> 00:20:13,485
or I’m putting you in a hospital.

253
00:20:15,075 –> 00:20:18,555
And at that point I was so scared
that I put up that white flag and I

254
00:20:18,555 –> 00:20:22,155
was like, All right, I’ll, I’ll go to
the doctor, I’ll, I’ll get some help.

255
00:20:23,385 –> 00:20:27,645
And I made an appointment that
afternoon to go see a physician, and

256
00:20:27,645 –> 00:20:31,005
the physician put me on antidepressants
because that’s what they do.

257
00:20:33,045 –> 00:20:36,435
And then he handed me a business
card and he said, I want you to make

258
00:20:36,435 –> 00:20:37,710
an appointment with this therapist.

259
00:20:39,629 –> 00:20:45,780
And I literally laughed in his face
because I said, Look, I tried this

260
00:20:45,780 –> 00:20:51,149
fourteen years ago and it didn’t work, so
what makes you think it’s gonna work now.

261
00:20:52,590 –> 00:20:55,680
And he said, You know, honestly,
you don’t have a choice.

262
00:20:57,629 –> 00:21:01,860
And so I made the appointment, and
three minutes into the appointment,

263
00:21:02,580 –> 00:21:04,740
I, I knew something was different.

264
00:21:05,820 –> 00:21:07,889
She was asking me the questions.

265
00:21:08,730 –> 00:21:14,010
And I felt safe with
her, so I answered them.

266
00:21:14,220 –> 00:21:17,730
I was allowing myself to
be vulnerable with her.

267
00:21:19,620 –> 00:21:24,780
And she looked at me after she heard my
story and she said, Susan, everything

268
00:21:24,780 –> 00:21:30,750
you’ve gone through since you were
seventeen is normal because you have PTSD.

269
00:21:32,880 –> 00:21:37,320
And I was like, Wait a
minute, I didn’t go to war.

270
00:21:38,040 –> 00:21:41,460
I’m not in the military,
what do you mean I have PTSD?

271
00:21:42,390 –> 00:21:43,560
And she said, Nope.

272
00:21:43,560 –> 00:21:49,770
She said, Anyone who goes through any
type of trauma can experience PTSD.

273
00:21:50,070 –> 00:21:55,140
But what you need to know about that is
that it’s not something that goes away,

274
00:21:55,590 –> 00:21:57,630
it’s something you learn to manage.

275
00:21:59,250 –> 00:22:07,650
And in that moment, I realized I had
hope for the first time that I had hope.

276
00:22:07,770 –> 00:22:13,170
And that I had a person that I had
been yearning to have all these

277
00:22:13,170 –> 00:22:19,050
years, someone to be able to listen
to me and guide me in the right way

278
00:22:19,320 –> 00:22:22,500
so that I can heal from my trauma.

279
00:22:23,880 –> 00:22:27,480
And I was so grateful in
that moment, so grateful.

280
00:22:29,790 –> 00:22:32,580
So that was the beginning
of my journey of healing.

281
00:22:34,660 –> 00:22:38,895
It, it’s, it’s a very
fascinating story, Susan.

282
00:22:39,465 –> 00:22:44,024
Um, I really wanna ask
the first question here.

283
00:22:45,045 –> 00:22:53,055
Did your family ever talk about
what if, if this ever occurred,

284
00:22:53,205 –> 00:22:56,024
before your father’s passing?

285
00:22:56,655 –> 00:23:02,925
Uh, did you ever sit down at the table
and say, Look, I have this dangerous

286
00:23:02,925 –> 00:23:13,455
job, and at any time, tragedy could
strike and we all need to be able

287
00:23:13,455 –> 00:23:15,675
to open up and talk about this.

288
00:23:15,825 –> 00:23:19,245
Was there ever that time in your family?

289
00:23:20,595 –> 00:23:21,135
No.

290
00:23:21,140 –> 00:23:24,405
You know, I, I kind of had
a false sense of security.

291
00:23:24,435 –> 00:23:31,160
Because when he became a detective, in
my mind, a detective comes in after.

292
00:23:32,270 –> 00:23:39,629
So the, the, the, it’s more of the
processing, it’s not being in the middle

293
00:23:39,629 –> 00:23:44,159
of the crime or, you know, putting
yourself in harm’s way in that way.

294
00:23:44,490 –> 00:23:51,000
And so I felt like dad had a desk job,
you know, how, how dangerous is that?

295
00:23:52,754 –> 00:23:56,804
We didn’t think about
retaliation or anything like

296
00:23:56,804 –> 00:23:58,754
that, and this is what it was.

297
00:23:59,355 –> 00:24:06,284
And so, and it had never happened before,
so it wasn’t even in our stratosphere.

298
00:24:06,375 –> 00:24:08,865
You know, we just didn’t
even think about that.

299
00:24:09,435 –> 00:24:16,260
I’m sure my mom and dad had, you know,
conversations when he went into law

300
00:24:16,260 –> 00:24:19,290
enforcement that this is a possibility.

301
00:24:19,770 –> 00:24:25,980
But when it came to me, being as
old as I was, and being able to

302
00:24:25,980 –> 00:24:33,240
have those kind of conversations, I
just felt like, you know, he had a

303
00:24:33,240 –> 00:24:36,209
desk job, he came in after the fact.

304
00:24:36,990 –> 00:24:38,969
You know, what harm could come to him?

305
00:24:40,335 –> 00:24:45,929
So, yeah, it was never a conversation
with, especially with me and him.

306
00:24:47,040 –> 00:24:51,570
So what was your support
system like before the incident

307
00:24:51,870 –> 00:24:54,300
and then after the incident?

308
00:24:54,450 –> 00:25:00,179
Was there ever any, you know,
the thin blue line brotherhood?

309
00:25:00,750 –> 00:25:03,690
They are supposed to
take care of each other.

310
00:25:03,690 –> 00:25:07,560
Was there support from
them before and after?

311
00:25:07,560 –> 00:25:08,435
And what was that like?

312
00:25:10,800 –> 00:25:17,070
Um, you know, my dad was pretty close
with a lot of the guys that he worked

313
00:25:17,070 –> 00:25:19,560
with, so they were kind of like family.

314
00:25:20,310 –> 00:25:25,050
Um, the one thing I can say about my
dad was he was a very present person.

315
00:25:25,860 –> 00:25:29,550
So when you were with him, he always
made you feel like you were the

316
00:25:29,550 –> 00:25:31,270
most important person in the room.

317
00:25:32,760 –> 00:25:36,419
And anyone who knew him, whether,
you know, he worked with them,

318
00:25:36,419 –> 00:25:39,389
or trained them, or whatever,
will say the same thing.

319
00:25:40,530 –> 00:25:45,720
And so there was always that feeling
of, you know, if something had happened,

320
00:25:46,590 –> 00:25:48,780
they would be there for his family.

321
00:25:49,050 –> 00:25:54,445
But afterwards, yes,
there was absolutely that.

322
00:25:54,810 –> 00:25:59,159
They came, they did whatever they
could to help my mom around the house.

323
00:25:59,985 –> 00:26:03,794
The following week, my brother had
a birthday and he turned seven.

324
00:26:03,794 –> 00:26:10,365
And so my mom and dad had bought
him a bike and they wanted, my dad

325
00:26:10,365 –> 00:26:14,895
wanted to teach him how to ride his
bike, but he didn’t get that chance.

326
00:26:16,095 –> 00:26:23,985
So, um, there were about, I, I don’t
know, twenty detectives that showed

327
00:26:23,985 –> 00:26:29,805
up at our door on his birthday and
showed my brother how to ride a bike.

328
00:26:30,255 –> 00:26:35,475
Um, and they came around quite a bit,
you know, there was a lot of police

329
00:26:35,475 –> 00:26:40,035
officers that, even though they
weren’t like in our face behind the

330
00:26:40,035 –> 00:26:42,855
scenes, they would look out for us.

331
00:26:43,275 –> 00:26:48,555
Um, my mom would have drive-bys all
the time where the, um, the guys that

332
00:26:48,555 –> 00:26:53,685
were on duty would drive by the house
just to make sure she was okay and

333
00:26:54,395 –> 00:26:57,935
nothing, you know, nothing was awry.

334
00:26:58,435 –> 00:27:02,700
Um, and there was a lot of that going on.

335
00:27:02,700 –> 00:27:10,230
I had no idea until much, much, like one
of ’em, I just realized, like I just got a

336
00:27:10,230 –> 00:27:14,850
letter from his wife, he has since passed.

337
00:27:14,850 –> 00:27:22,080
But, uh, his wife read my book and
she, um, she reached out to me by

338
00:27:22,080 –> 00:27:29,175
email and told me that he always, he
was one of the officers that escorted

339
00:27:29,175 –> 00:27:31,094
us into the office that night.

340
00:27:32,534 –> 00:27:38,324
So he would always kind of keep
an eye on my mom and my brother.

341
00:27:39,735 –> 00:27:46,185
And, um, and, and that was really
bittersweet, um, especially

342
00:27:46,185 –> 00:27:50,834
knowing that he is no longer here,
and I didn’t even know about it.

343
00:27:50,834 –> 00:27:52,665
My mom knew about it,
but she never told me.

344
00:27:55,170 –> 00:27:56,190
Which is not a shocker.

345
00:27:57,930 –> 00:27:59,940
Yeah, that’s how it works.

346
00:28:01,170 –> 00:28:04,260
So, you know, yeah.

347
00:28:04,530 –> 00:28:10,290
Your, your brother was there when it
happened and, you know, your father kind

348
00:28:10,290 –> 00:28:17,640
of told him to get down and get out of the
way, so I’m sure he’s, he’s going through

349
00:28:18,060 –> 00:28:21,360
a lot of the same and maybe a little more.

350
00:28:22,169 –> 00:28:30,000
Uh, do you guys ever talk about what
happened and do you reminisce about it?

351
00:28:31,830 –> 00:28:34,830
Uh, yeah.

352
00:28:34,830 –> 00:28:35,730
I try not to.

353
00:28:35,730 –> 00:28:40,169
And the reason is, I mean, he and I
have talked about a lot of things.

354
00:28:40,230 –> 00:28:44,070
Um, I didn’t have a relationship
with him for many years just

355
00:28:44,070 –> 00:28:49,290
because at the time when he was
an adolescent into early teens, he

356
00:28:49,290 –> 00:28:51,149
started getting into some trouble.

357
00:28:51,945 –> 00:28:56,295
Um, and he was not making good
choices, let’s just put it that way.

358
00:28:56,325 –> 00:29:01,275
And, uh, headed down the drug route.

359
00:29:02,265 –> 00:29:08,805
My mom was a drinker and my dad,
my brother was, uh, an addict.

360
00:29:08,955 –> 00:29:16,605
And so, um, I kind of, and we’re
ten years apart, so I distance

361
00:29:16,605 –> 00:29:19,850
myself a lot from that drama.

362
00:29:20,805 –> 00:29:28,275
Um, but as he got older and I got to know
him as an adult and he got to know me as

363
00:29:28,275 –> 00:29:33,705
an adult, we were able to start healing
our relationship about seven years ago.

364
00:29:34,725 –> 00:29:40,185
And in that, we were, it was literally
a comparison of, comparison of notes.

365
00:29:41,625 –> 00:29:49,185
Um, which was healing, but at the
same time, it’s like, the one thing

366
00:29:49,185 –> 00:29:55,635
that he could tell me is that, at the
time of the incident, all the focus

367
00:29:55,635 –> 00:29:57,635
went on to him and my, and my mother.

368
00:29:58,835 –> 00:30:01,335
And, and, and of course it would, right?

369
00:30:01,514 –> 00:30:03,345
But I got pushed aside.

370
00:30:04,185 –> 00:30:07,125
Um, the media didn’t even
realize or recognize that he

371
00:30:07,125 –> 00:30:08,685
had a daughter for two days.

372
00:30:09,885 –> 00:30:14,995
And so I felt very pushed
aside, very not important.

373
00:30:15,415 –> 00:30:20,250
Um, and he knew that and
recognized that and had a lot

374
00:30:20,250 –> 00:30:21,840
of shame and guilt around that.

375
00:30:21,840 –> 00:30:25,230
So we were able to heal
through those conversations.

376
00:30:26,310 –> 00:30:28,650
Um, and now we’re very, very close.

377
00:30:29,190 –> 00:30:36,840
And he’s doing great and he is, you
know, he married the love of his life.

378
00:30:36,870 –> 00:30:42,500
He has a daughter in California,
he’s a stepdad, he’s now a papa

379
00:30:43,649 –> 00:30:48,990
to two babies, and, um, you know,
he’s doing really, really well now.

380
00:30:50,129 –> 00:30:57,720
He has visceral reactions, um,
he has, it, it leads to, to some

381
00:30:58,320 –> 00:31:04,170
physical issues that he has if we
bring up, if he gets overly stressed.

382
00:31:04,260 –> 00:31:10,379
So I told him when I wrote the book,
you can read this or you don’t have to.

383
00:31:11,715 –> 00:31:14,745
You can read it along with your therapist.

384
00:31:15,135 –> 00:31:20,085
Um, I don’t wanna put any more pressure
on him and I definitely don’t wanna

385
00:31:20,085 –> 00:31:22,665
cause him any more health issues.

386
00:31:23,235 –> 00:31:28,125
So, um, I just told him, you
know, when you’re, when it’s

387
00:31:28,125 –> 00:31:30,855
time, if you wanna read it, great.

388
00:31:31,035 –> 00:31:33,795
If you don’t ever wanna
read it, that’s fine too.

389
00:31:34,365 –> 00:31:35,505
I totally get it.

390
00:31:36,795 –> 00:31:43,125
Um, so we, we have been able to, we’ve
been able to like talk about that night

391
00:31:43,185 –> 00:31:53,925
and what he saw and um, and I was able
to kind of tell him that, you know, it

392
00:31:53,925 –> 00:32:01,800
made me sad that he had so much shame
and so much guilt about, even though

393
00:32:01,800 –> 00:32:05,910
he was six years old, that there was
nothing he could do to help the situation.

394
00:32:05,910 –> 00:32:07,380
There was nothing he could do.

395
00:32:08,130 –> 00:32:12,450
But he lived with survivor’s
guilt for a really long time.

396
00:32:13,740 –> 00:32:21,390
And, and I, you know, he had to hear
it from me that it was okay to have

397
00:32:21,390 –> 00:32:28,275
those feelings and just make sure
that he knew that that was valid.

398
00:32:28,455 –> 00:32:31,785
You know, it was a valid emotion to have.

399
00:32:32,595 –> 00:32:37,965
However, you know, I don’t feel that way.

400
00:32:38,805 –> 00:32:44,505
Uh, no one else feels that way, and
so he needs to learn to let that go

401
00:32:45,045 –> 00:32:46,780
so that he can move on with his life.

402
00:32:47,865 –> 00:32:48,105
Yeah.

403
00:32:48,764 –> 00:32:54,014
Well, anytime we deal with these
traumatic experiences, especially as

404
00:32:54,014 –> 00:33:00,465
children, because that’s when it’s
most traumatizing, uh, in my opinion.

405
00:33:00,985 –> 00:33:02,115
Uh, so

406
00:33:04,294 –> 00:33:11,264
there’s, there’s a lot of ways
people can go, but you chose to start

407
00:33:11,264 –> 00:33:14,475
speaking out and become an advocate.

408
00:33:14,625 –> 00:33:20,834
What was that tipping point like and why
did you choose to start speaking out?

409
00:33:24,510 –> 00:33:32,565
Well, for me, part of the reason I wrote
my book was, um, when you go through

410
00:33:32,565 –> 00:33:39,195
something like that, that’s very much
in, uh, you know, out there in the open

411
00:33:39,705 –> 00:33:49,575
and people make up in their minds your
story and a lot of times their story did

412
00:33:49,575 –> 00:33:53,745
not align with who I was as a person.

413
00:33:54,105 –> 00:34:00,750
And so when I turned fifty years old,
there’s something about fifty, I don’t

414
00:34:00,750 –> 00:34:03,149
know, but I drew a line in the sand.

415
00:34:04,530 –> 00:34:08,790
I drew a line in the sand and
I said, It has to happen now,

416
00:34:08,940 –> 00:34:10,560
I have to write my book now.

417
00:34:11,730 –> 00:34:14,250
And it took me four and
a half years to write it.

418
00:34:14,730 –> 00:34:20,730
I had to be in the right mental state in
order to do this, and I had to have the

419
00:34:20,730 –> 00:34:26,770
tools to manage the emotions that would
come up throughout the writing process.

420
00:34:27,770 –> 00:34:32,550
And I did, I, I felt confident
in knowing that I would be able

421
00:34:32,550 –> 00:34:36,179
to pull myself out of whatever
emotion that I was headed towards.

422
00:34:38,190 –> 00:34:42,300
There was a lot of fear involved
in writing this book, as well,

423
00:34:42,449 –> 00:34:44,219
for a couple of different reasons.

424
00:34:44,670 –> 00:34:48,270
When I sat back and I realized what
kind of book I wanted to write, which

425
00:34:48,270 –> 00:34:53,400
was a memoir, I knew that I needed
to be a hundred percent authentic.

426
00:34:54,915 –> 00:34:59,145
And in doing that, I had to tell,
not only my story, but I had to

427
00:34:59,145 –> 00:35:01,215
tell other people’s stories as well.

428
00:35:02,295 –> 00:35:07,065
And in doing that, I knew that
part of those people would

429
00:35:07,065 –> 00:35:11,745
be my mom and my, my husband.

430
00:35:13,035 –> 00:35:21,810
And I, when I thought about it,
it was scary because my mom and

431
00:35:21,810 –> 00:35:23,520
I were hanging on by a thread.

432
00:35:23,970 –> 00:35:29,790
You know, our relationship has
never been healthy and, uh, my

433
00:35:29,790 –> 00:35:31,950
mom is a narcissistic parent.

434
00:35:32,580 –> 00:35:36,149
And so it was difficult, right?

435
00:35:36,149 –> 00:35:45,509
So I had to be okay with the outcome,
whether that was totally releasing our

436
00:35:45,509 –> 00:35:50,714
relationship or opening a conversation.

437
00:35:52,484 –> 00:35:57,825
Also with my husband, we’ve been through
so much in almost forty years together and

438
00:35:58,785 –> 00:36:06,384
I was afraid that this, ’cause I do talk
about issues that we had in our marriage,

439
00:36:07,435 –> 00:36:12,944
that this would reopen some old wounds and
cause harm to my relationship with him.

440
00:36:13,755 –> 00:36:17,805
The third thing that I was
fearful was, my safety.

441
00:36:18,915 –> 00:36:25,154
Because when the book came out, two
of the men were still incarcerated.

442
00:36:25,815 –> 00:36:31,310
One of them had already been released
in 2017, so I was a little afraid

443
00:36:31,310 –> 00:36:38,565
of retaliation, coming from my
background, because we were targets

444
00:36:38,565 –> 00:36:41,205
at one point, the entire family.

445
00:36:42,615 –> 00:36:46,785
Um, so all those old
feelings came back up.

446
00:36:48,645 –> 00:36:54,075
But what I realized that there
was so much pain and anger

447
00:36:54,465 –> 00:36:57,105
revolving around my dad’s death.

448
00:36:57,665 –> 00:37:01,649
And, and the fact that my
brother was involved and saw it.

449
00:37:02,399 –> 00:37:10,230
In the law enforcement world especially,
um, I felt like if people saw the healing

450
00:37:10,230 –> 00:37:16,500
I did and the resiliency I have, that
it would allow them to heal as well.

451
00:37:18,299 –> 00:37:22,529
And I also realized that there
are faceless people out there

452
00:37:23,234 –> 00:37:28,814
that maybe are afraid of starting
their healing journey from trauma.

453
00:37:29,714 –> 00:37:33,975
That maybe by them seeing my book
and reading my book and hearing my

454
00:37:33,975 –> 00:37:38,475
message, that it would give them, um,

455
00:37:41,024 –> 00:37:44,205
an idea of they weren’t alone.

456
00:37:44,294 –> 00:37:50,055
You know, just making sure that they
understood that they aren’t alone and

457
00:37:50,655 –> 00:37:52,995
you can get through things like this.

458
00:37:53,355 –> 00:37:57,975
You can move through this, these
things, you can find resiliency

459
00:37:57,975 –> 00:37:59,175
on the other side of it.

460
00:38:00,045 –> 00:38:04,875
So every time I had those fears pop
up and they came, they popped up

461
00:38:04,875 –> 00:38:12,315
frequently, I always put my purpose
behind the writing of the book.

462
00:38:12,765 –> 00:38:18,465
Which was the faceless people out there
that needed to hear my message, that

463
00:38:18,465 –> 00:38:22,950
needed to hear they weren’t alone, and
needed to hear that they can heal from

464
00:38:22,950 –> 00:38:24,780
whatever trauma that they’ve gone through.

465
00:38:26,820 –> 00:38:29,370
Yeah, I, I think it’s so important.

466
00:38:29,760 –> 00:38:36,569
You know, they, they say coping
with things can be difficult.

467
00:38:37,174 –> 00:38:44,850
I, I say it is going to be difficult
no matter how, how strong we are.

468
00:38:45,210 –> 00:38:49,140
When hiccups hit us, it’s a roadblock.

469
00:38:49,140 –> 00:38:54,690
And sometimes our mind, it, it
stumbles when those things happen.

470
00:38:55,259 –> 00:39:03,509
So what, what is the best thing that has
come out of this instance in your life?

471
00:39:06,000 –> 00:39:10,590
Oh gosh, the best thing,
I, I found my purpose.

472
00:39:11,280 –> 00:39:15,000
Um, I found my purpose.

473
00:39:15,000 –> 00:39:21,690
And so when I speak to people,
um, I’m coming from a place of, I

474
00:39:21,690 –> 00:39:25,050
understand where they’re coming from.

475
00:39:26,430 –> 00:39:34,500
And my biggest message that I
put out to people when they meet

476
00:39:34,500 –> 00:39:37,710
me is, that I am a safe space.

477
00:39:39,450 –> 00:39:45,480
You can be vulnerable with me, you
can trust me, there is no judgment.

478
00:39:46,110 –> 00:39:49,680
I think a lot of people go into
therapy and they’re afraid to be

479
00:39:49,770 –> 00:39:53,490
vulnerable because they’re afraid
they’re gonna be judged for whatever

480
00:39:53,490 –> 00:39:55,230
it is that’s coming out of their mouth.

481
00:39:56,010 –> 00:40:01,330
And I can tell you right now, if you have
a therapist that has any kind of judgment,

482
00:40:02,250 –> 00:40:07,560
you get up from that chair and you leave
the office because that’s not your person.

483
00:40:09,810 –> 00:40:13,260
Um, and I had to learn that, you know?

484
00:40:14,040 –> 00:40:18,450
And I was, I was grateful it only took
me two therapists to figure that out.

485
00:40:18,660 –> 00:40:23,970
However, I tell people all the
time, this is your healing.

486
00:40:24,120 –> 00:40:25,740
It’s nobody else’s healing.

487
00:40:27,255 –> 00:40:31,725
You have every right to interview
your therapist, make sure that that

488
00:40:31,725 –> 00:40:34,695
therapist knows your type of trauma.

489
00:40:35,475 –> 00:40:39,795
Not that they lump you into one
generalization of what trauma is,

490
00:40:40,245 –> 00:40:41,985
because every trauma is different.

491
00:40:43,395 –> 00:40:48,195
So if they don’t know what type of trauma
you’ve gone through, they’re gonna have

492
00:40:48,195 –> 00:40:54,060
a hard time guiding you in the right
way and nurturing you along the way.

493
00:40:54,660 –> 00:40:59,680
And so I tell everybody, like, make
sure that you’re interviewing them.

494
00:40:59,730 –> 00:41:04,710
Ask that question, Is this the type
of trauma that you specialize in?

495
00:41:04,710 –> 00:41:10,710
Or how many, how many clients have you
dealt with, with my type of trauma?

496
00:41:12,120 –> 00:41:18,480
And if you feel like you can be vulnerable
with that person, if you feel like that’s

497
00:41:18,480 –> 00:41:24,975
a safe space for you, I know that being
vulnerable is one of the most scariest

498
00:41:24,975 –> 00:41:30,185
thing in the whole wide world, to open
yourself up and be that raw, I get it.

499
00:41:30,545 –> 00:41:32,465
I’ve been there, I’ve done that.

500
00:41:33,515 –> 00:41:36,395
And I, and I recognize
that, and that’s okay.

501
00:41:36,575 –> 00:41:39,455
That’s okay, that’s valid.

502
00:41:40,685 –> 00:41:48,275
However, if you don’t allow yourself to be
vulnerable with that therapist, with that

503
00:41:48,275 –> 00:41:53,795
professional, with that coach, with that
spiritual leader, whatever it is that you

504
00:41:53,795 –> 00:42:00,395
seek, the real true healing is not gonna
happen in the way that you need it to.

505
00:42:02,285 –> 00:42:03,635
So it’s really important.

506
00:42:05,260 –> 00:42:05,550
Yeah.

507
00:42:06,180 –> 00:42:07,310
Yeah, a hundred percent.

508
00:42:09,170 –> 00:42:10,010
That, that is.

509
00:42:10,010 –> 00:42:15,920
That is 100% truth and
it’s rock solid advice.

510
00:42:16,460 –> 00:42:25,370
So I, I found podcasting and I found
that this release mechanism and

511
00:42:25,580 –> 00:42:32,780
this journey of education has helped
me grow immensely in my journey.

512
00:42:33,185 –> 00:42:34,955
Also my wife’s journey.

513
00:42:35,345 –> 00:42:42,980
And we really find comfort
in learning from others and

514
00:42:42,980 –> 00:42:45,410
what they have went through.

515
00:42:45,770 –> 00:42:52,220
This is a solid way to be able to turn
on and just listen to other people

516
00:42:52,220 –> 00:42:59,300
and how they have went through and
overcome different situations in life.

517
00:42:59,420 –> 00:43:01,820
And you don’t even have to say a word.

518
00:43:02,300 –> 00:43:09,680
So I found that podcasting can be a safe
space and you can be wherever you are.

519
00:43:09,710 –> 00:43:15,560
So when you don’t have that
trust in somebody, there’s

520
00:43:15,560 –> 00:43:18,200
always that mechanism of hope.

521
00:43:18,500 –> 00:43:24,470
And that’s what Susan and I are here
doing today, is providing that hope

522
00:43:24,770 –> 00:43:32,480
and that availability for individuals
that might be seeking a better way.

523
00:43:32,540 –> 00:43:38,690
And we might be a doorstep to
that therapist for them because

524
00:43:38,990 –> 00:43:41,090
we all need help, don’t we, Susan?

525
00:43:42,860 –> 00:43:45,920
Absolutely, absolutely.

526
00:43:47,750 –> 00:43:53,810
You know, it’s, it’s, and where I come
into play as a coach, because even though

527
00:43:53,810 –> 00:43:58,400
I went through all of this work, I did
all of that work meant for my mental

528
00:43:58,400 –> 00:44:03,980
health, you still get to a point in
your life where you’re like, Okay, I’m

529
00:44:03,980 –> 00:44:06,140
this person now, what do I do with it?

530
00:44:07,220 –> 00:44:11,360
And, and so that’s where I come into play.

531
00:44:11,540 –> 00:44:15,080
You know, we, we, I meet
you where you are, right?

532
00:44:15,410 –> 00:44:19,850
If you still need, if you still
have some healing to do, I’m not a

533
00:44:19,850 –> 00:44:27,950
therapist, but I know enough to be
able to, um, move you past some of that

534
00:44:27,950 –> 00:44:29,780
so that you’re able to move forward.

535
00:44:30,530 –> 00:44:35,150
Whether it’s in your relationship,
whether it’s parenting, you know,

536
00:44:35,150 –> 00:44:40,430
being a mom or a dad, or, you know,
in your career, in, you know, in your

537
00:44:40,430 –> 00:44:42,470
business life, your professional life.

538
00:44:42,470 –> 00:44:48,770
So, um, that’s where I come into play
as far as being a resiliency coach.

539
00:44:50,090 –> 00:44:50,390
Yes.

540
00:44:50,390 –> 00:44:57,995
And, and life skill, it, it really is
the defining factor in being an expert.

541
00:44:58,535 –> 00:45:01,445
You know, a white coat does
not make you an expert.

542
00:45:01,775 –> 00:45:07,265
But I can guarantee you after you’re
fifty years old and you’ve been married

543
00:45:07,265 –> 00:45:13,405
over forty years, that’s a lot of
experience that can help many people.

544
00:45:13,915 –> 00:45:19,225
I’ve been with my wife and
married, we got together in 1983.

545
00:45:19,555 –> 00:45:25,795
We’ve been married since 1985, and
it’s the best thing and the worst

546
00:45:25,795 –> 00:45:27,745
thing that’s ever happened in my life.

547
00:45:29,095 –> 00:45:35,125
But I am very thankful for the
experience and the transition that

548
00:45:35,125 –> 00:45:37,735
led me to where I am here today.

549
00:45:37,765 –> 00:45:43,085
And that’s the beauty of
the experience factor.

550
00:45:43,085 –> 00:45:47,465
Being over fifty, have a lot to offer.

551
00:45:47,465 –> 00:45:51,995
And there’s no way anyone can deny that.

552
00:45:51,995 –> 00:45:54,935
So I highly encourage you to keep going.

553
00:45:55,415 –> 00:46:00,155
And most of all, I wanna say
thank you for sharing here today.

554
00:46:00,965 –> 00:46:05,405
Do you have anything else you’d
like to add to our conversation or

555
00:46:05,405 –> 00:46:08,825
give our listeners a call to action?

556
00:46:09,545 –> 00:46:12,635
Yeah, so, um, a couple of things.

557
00:46:12,665 –> 00:46:14,585
I always end with one.

558
00:46:15,155 –> 00:46:18,095
Um, if you’re out there and you’re
listening to this, just know that

559
00:46:18,095 –> 00:46:24,580
you’re not alone and there is a person
out there that can help you heal.

560
00:46:26,405 –> 00:46:31,865
The one thing I can say personally is
that doing the work and healing through

561
00:46:31,865 –> 00:46:36,515
my trauma and finding resiliency,

562
00:46:38,705 –> 00:46:42,925
the fact that I don’t have
that pain hold it, held over

563
00:46:42,925 –> 00:46:47,465
my head anymore is priceless.

564
00:46:47,525 –> 00:46:53,015
And that’s what I want for everyone,
I want everyone to feel that.

565
00:46:53,495 –> 00:46:58,175
And so just knowing that you’re
not alone and that’s not something

566
00:46:58,175 –> 00:46:59,915
that I heard as a young lady.

567
00:47:00,935 –> 00:47:03,155
Um, I felt very alone.

568
00:47:04,085 –> 00:47:08,975
And so it’s always my, it’s
always my message to people.

569
00:47:10,265 –> 00:47:18,785
And you know, like I said, um, life is
messy and we do get trauma along the way

570
00:47:20,825 –> 00:47:25,220
and you can also find the
healing through that trauma.

571
00:47:25,340 –> 00:47:31,790
And once you have healed through
a trauma and you’ve worked, done

572
00:47:31,790 –> 00:47:38,150
some of the work, when things come
up in life, you’re more apt to cope

573
00:47:38,150 –> 00:47:41,780
with them in a more healthy way.

574
00:47:42,710 –> 00:47:46,790
So it’s very important for you
to take time out for yourself.

575
00:47:47,180 –> 00:47:52,250
I know a lot of people heal for others,
they heal for their children, they

576
00:47:52,250 –> 00:47:56,450
try to heal for, you know, whoever
else, you need to heal for yourself.

577
00:47:57,050 –> 00:48:00,770
And you’ll see once you’ve healed
yourself and healed your wounds,

578
00:48:01,340 –> 00:48:05,900
that it ripples out and the
people around you recognize that.

579
00:48:07,300 –> 00:48:13,040
So then now you’re in it together
instead of on an island alone.

580
00:48:13,970 –> 00:48:17,175
And that’s, that’s really
important in your journey.

581
00:48:19,370 –> 00:48:19,730
Yeah.

582
00:48:20,900 –> 00:48:25,040
How can people reach out and
get in touch and work with you?

583
00:48:27,590 –> 00:48:28,220
Sure.

584
00:48:28,760 –> 00:48:33,530
So, um, if you want the book, I’ll
tell you where to get the book.

585
00:48:33,530 –> 00:48:35,600
The book is The Other Side of the Gun.

586
00:48:35,630 –> 00:48:37,880
My Journey from Trauma to Resiliency.

587
00:48:38,420 –> 00:48:42,200
It is on Amazon and it is in Kindle form.

588
00:48:42,200 –> 00:48:48,245
So if you’re a Kindle Unlimited, uh,
member, you can read my book for free.

589
00:48:49,055 –> 00:48:50,645
All I ask is for reviews.

590
00:48:51,845 –> 00:48:58,775
Um, I am on Instagram,
Susan underscore Snow 1.

591
00:48:59,025 –> 00:49:01,925
I am on TikTok and I have a website.

592
00:49:02,375 –> 00:49:06,785
My website is great ’cause it gives
information on my speaking, it also

593
00:49:06,785 –> 00:49:11,615
gives, uh, information on my coaching
and a little bit about my book.

594
00:49:11,735 –> 00:49:14,975
So that is susansnowspeaks.com.

595
00:49:16,775 –> 00:49:21,035
Susan, it’s remarkable what
you’re doing out there.

596
00:49:21,125 –> 00:49:27,185
I thank you for doing it, and thank
you so much for sharing here today.

597
00:49:27,755 –> 00:49:29,105
I wish you the best.

598
00:49:31,265 –> 00:49:32,495
Thank you so much.

599
00:49:33,455 –> 00:49:34,535
Thanks for having me.

600
00:49:38,075 –> 00:49:39,755
Thank you for joining us today.

601
00:49:40,385 –> 00:49:46,595
If you found this podcast enlightening,
entertaining, educational in any way,

602
00:49:47,300 –> 00:49:53,780
please share, like, subscribe, and join
us right back here next week for another

603
00:49:53,780 –> 00:49:57,200
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.

604
00:49:57,470 –> 00:50:02,760
I’m Ed Watters, your host, enjoy
your afternoon wherever you might be.